Scripture Alone

[EricH]

This topic addresses to aspects of scripture:

1. Its sufficiency

2. Its authority

The sufficiency of scripture means that scripture contains all of the words that God intended His people to have at each stage of redemptive history, and that it now contains all the words we need for salvation, trusting in Him, and obeying Him perfectly.

Passages that address this are:

and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Tim 3:15 NASB

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

2 Tim 3:16-17 NASB

The authority of scripture means that all of the words in scripture are God's very words and the final standard of truth:

[st. Worm]

When Romanists tell you that Sola Scriptura is unbiblical and that their traditions mirror Scripture and do not contradict the Bible consider the following list of how a sect can go astray when they jettison Sola Scriptura. These should warn all that men including popes are not infallible. Also I do not think tradition is per se a bad thing, yet it cannot be put on the same level as God's Word.

The Word of God teaches that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23; Ezekiel 18:4,20), and that all sin is purged and we were purified in Christ, by the cross. Roman catholic traditions teach that sin can be purged later, in a place called Purgatory (place of purifying).

The Word of God teaches that the office of bishop and presbyter are the same office (Titus 1) but Roman tradition says they are different offices.

The Scriptures of God teaches that Christ offered His sacrifice once for all (Hebrews 7:27, 9:28, 10:10), while Roman catholic tradition corrects this, claiming that the Priest sacrifices Christ on the altar at mass.

The Word of God teaches that we should not use vain repetitions in prayers (Matthew 6:7) thinking that we will be heard for our much speaking, while the Roman catholic traditions teach repeating Hail Mary in prayer as penitence 'as if' God indeed will hear us for our much repetition.

The Word of God teach that all have sinned except Jesus (Romans 3:10-12, Hebrews 4:15), while Roman catholic traditions claim that's not true, as Mary was also sinless.

The Holy scriptures teaches that all Christians are Saints and Priests (Ephesians 1:1; 1 Peter 2:9), but Roman Catholic tradition has made Saints and Priests special cases and offices within the Christian community, dealt out by their Church leadership.

The Word of God says that we are not to bow down to statues (Exodus 20:4-5), but the Roman catholic tradition makes no such claim, nor rebukes Christians for this practice.

The Word of God says that Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5), but Roman catholic tradition claims Mary is co-mediator with Christ.

The Word of God says that Jesus Christ is the Rock upon which the Church rests, the foundation stone, and the Head of the Church (Luke 6:48, 1st Peter 2:7-8, Matthew 16:18), But Roman catholic tradition claims that the foundation Rock of the Church is Pope Peter, and that the pontiff is the head of the Church, an aberration which in effect makes God's Church, a two headed Church, with multiple authorities and starting foundation.

The Word of God says that all Christians can and should know that they have eternal life (1 John 5:13), but Roman catholic tradition says that all Christians cannot and should not know that they have eternal life.

The Reformers understood clearly that the words of our Saviour Jesus Christ to the Pharisees, applied equally to those of their day:

"..thus you have made the commandment of God of non effect by your traditions!" -Matthew 15:6

*taken in part from Tony's Warren's article, Is the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura Really Biblical?.

[Fiosh]

When Romanists tell you that Sola Scriptura is unbiblical and that their traditions mirror Scripture and do not contradict the Bible consider the following list of how a sect can go astray when they jettison Sola Scriptura. These should warn all that men including popes are not infallible. Also I do not think tradition is per se a bad thing, yet it cannot be put on the same level as God's Word.

The Word of God teaches that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23; Ezekiel 18:4,20), and that all sin is purged and we were purified in Christ, by the cross. Roman catholic traditions teach that sin can be purged later, in a place called Purgatory (place of purifying).

The Word of God teaches that the office of bishop and presbyter are the same office (Titus 1) but Roman tradition says they are different offices.

The Scriptures of God teaches that Christ offered His sacrifice once for all (Hebrews 7:27, 9:28, 10:10), while Roman catholic tradition corrects this, claiming that the Priest sacrifices Christ on the altar at mass.

The Word of God teaches that we should not use vain repetitions in prayers (Matthew 6:7) thinking that we will be heard for our much speaking, while the Roman catholic traditions teach repeating Hail Mary in prayer as penitence 'as if' God indeed will hear us for our much repetition.

The Word of God teach that all have sinned except Jesus (Romans 3:10-12, Hebrews 4:15), while Roman catholic traditions claim that's not true, as Mary was also sinless.

The Holy scriptures teaches that all Christians are Saints and Priests (Ephesians 1:1; 1 Peter 2:9), but Roman Catholic tradition has made Saints and Priests special cases and offices within the Christian community, dealt out by their Church leadership.

The Word of God says that we are not to bow down to statues (Exodus 20:4-5), but the Roman catholic tradition makes no such claim, nor rebukes Christians for this practice.

The Word of God says that Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5), but Roman catholic tradition claims Mary is co-mediator with Christ.

The Word of God says that Jesus Christ is the Rock upon which the Church rests, the foundation stone, and the Head of the Church (Luke 6:48, 1st Peter 2:7-8, Matthew 16:18), But Roman catholic tradition claims that the foundation Rock of the Church is Pope Peter, and that the pontiff is the head of the Church, an aberration which in effect makes God's Church, a two headed Church, with multiple authorities and starting foundation.

The Word of God says that all Christians can and should know that they have eternal life (1 John 5:13), but Roman catholic tradition says that all Christians cannot and should not know that they have eternal life.

The Reformers understood clearly that the words of our Saviour Jesus Christ to the Pharisees, applied equally to those of their day:

"..thus you have made the commandment of God of non effect by your traditions!" -Matthew 15:6

*taken in part from Tony's Warren's article, Is the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura Really Biblical?.

Hi sw,

I'm trying to decide how to respond to you without totally disrailing this thread. Maybe you could start a new thread for the purpose of discussing RC doctrines. Each of these points has been fully discussed on WB within the last year or so; and have been shown to be in keeping with the teaching of Scripture. Some of our differences result from our interpretation of Scripture. Some are a result of Protestant misunderstanding of RC teaching.

It is impossible to respond fully to everyone of your points without it becoming a thread in itself.

(here's a quick overview)

Mary is a good example of this. WE DO NOT WORSHIP MARY---THAT IS HERESY. Yes, we do ask Mary to intercede for us; just as I would ask you to pray for me. Yes, we do honor Mary as the mother of Jesus, and as our mother. But we do not worship her.

There are verses in Scripture that support the concept of Purgatory.

We do not "re-sacrifice" Jesus at the Mass. We "re-present" His one Perfect Sacrifice to the Father. As God is not limited by time, that one sacrifice is always present to Him.

Vain repetition: How many times can you pray the Lord's Prayer before it becomes "vain repetition"?

Is Rev. 4:8 an example of vain repetition?

"The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, 8 were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come."

The RCC does not make saints. It simply holds up certain holy men and women as examples for us to follow. Much as Paul tells us to imitate him.

Jesus said Peter is the rock on which He will build his church, not me. The RCC teaches that Jesus is the foundation; Peter and his successors are the earthly rock built upon the foundation which is Jesus.

Eternal life: the Bible tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. It assures salvation only to those who finish the race. I don't believe the OSAS doctrine.

Each of your accusations could be a thread in themselves. If you are serious about wanting to understand why the RCC teaches what it teaches, go for it, and start a thread.

If you want to talk anti-Biblical practices, show me where in the Bible it states that women can preach the Gospel and lead churches?

Anyway, back to Sola Scriptura.

You and others repeat several times 2 Tim 3:16-17. And yes, all Scripture IS inspired by God profitable. However, that verse does not say ONLY Scripture.

God did not only leave us a book; He left us a Church. Jesus did not write a book; he established a Church. Up until about 500 years ago, we were all part of that same church and all professed the same beliefs. The RCC has not changed its doctrines, so....???

You guys keep throwing out the same 2 or 3 verses to claim Sola Scriptura. I've given you at least 16 that support oral Tradition. Just because you say, "the only record we now have of those traditions is in Scripture"...doesn't make it so.

RCC dotrine is in keeping with the practice of the early Church because it obeys the Biblical command to hold fast to the traditions. Others have gone astray, because they refuse to submit to the authority of the Church to interpret Scripture. An authority given by God, and protected by the Holy Spirit.

Please understand, the pope and the magisterium is ONLY infallible when teaching faith and morals to the faithful. It applies only in very specific circumstances. The Pope sins. He is not an infallible human being, per se.

The RCC holds to Traditions because the Bible commands us to do so. Period.

Peace,

Fiosh

PS Who is Tony Warren???

[Fiosh]

Where in Scripture is this Protestant tenet?

The reason that I believe that we must go by scripture alone is the simple matter that I believe it to be God's Word. 2 Timothy 3:16,17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Notice it doesn't say "all the writings of the church fathers" or "all the writings in the Christian tradition." It says "all scripture." Many of the other writings are contradictory to the Bible. If we gave equal weight to the numerous extra-Biblical writings that exist, we would be in utter confusion.

You mentioned this being a "Protestant tenet." This is the reason why we don't accept many of the things the Catholic Church teaches. Many of their teachings are based on additional manuscripts as well as traditions. Since many of these things contradict the scriptures we reject them.

Hi there Butero,

I beg to differ. The RCC teaches NOTHING that contradicts Scripture. What varies is our interpretation of Scripture. For ex. I doubt we'd agree on the meaning of "This is my Body".

But then, this saying IS hard.

Peace,

Fiosh

Actually it does. The veneration of Mary is anti-scriptural as is equating the traditions of men with the commandments of God

Actually it doesn't. We do not worship Mary; we honor her. There is nothing anti-scriptural about honoring the mother of Jesus. I'm sure Jesus honored her, since He followed the Commandments ( Honor thy father and thy mother). And we are to be imitators of Christ..

Actually....The Bible commands us to hold fast to oral traditions. 2 Thess 2:15

[Fiosh]

As a response to fiosh, I am posting a portion of the Lutheran Book of Concord which biblically addresses why the Roman Catholic system of popery is not scriptural.... I do believe it is relevant to this thread.

This is a new topic SW - start a new thread if you want

to discuss Church Authority or the Papacy. The title of

this thread is Scripture Alone and the question posed

was: "Where in Scripture is this Protestant tenet?"

So it is up to those who believe in it, to prove it by

Scripture, which they have not done.

This never says all writings of the early church or all traditions are given by inspiration of God. If it did, it would create mass confusion since there are so many different doctrines expressed in the writings of different people throughout the Christian world. They range from minor differences to heretical works such as the gnostics wrote, like this new found supposed gospel of Judas.

I believe the burden is on you to show in scripture where we are to accept doctrine that goes contrary to the 66 books that make up the cannon of the Bible.

Butero,

You just sank your own ship.

There exists no confusion in the RCC about what we teach and believe.

However, you need not look to far to find utter confusion in Protestantism. So if your theory holds true, and confusion points to error in the interpretation of Scripture, then it is Protestantism that is found wanting.

Peace,

Fiosh

[Fiosh]

HELLO FIOSH. I would like to respond to the things you have said.

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Hi sw,

I'm trying to decide how to respond to you without totally disrailing this thread. Maybe you could start a new thread for the purpose of discussing RC doctrines. Each of these points has been fully discussed on WB within the last year or so; and have been shown to be in keeping with the teaching of Scripture. Some of our differences result from our interpretation of Scripture. Some are a result of Protestant misunderstanding of RC teaching.

It is impossible to respond fully to everyone of your points without it becoming a thread in itself.

(here's a quick overview)

Mary is a good example of this. WE DO NOT WORSHIP MARY---THAT IS HERESY. Yes, we do ask Mary to intercede for us; just as I would ask you to pray for me. Yes, we do honor Mary as the mother of Jesus, and as our mother. But we do not worship her.

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QUESTION: WHERE IN THE BIBLE ARE WE TOLD WE SHOULD REQUEST ANYTHING FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIED AND GONE ON TO HEAVEN, INCLUDING MARY?

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There are verses in Scripture that support the concept of Purgatory.

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QUESTION: WHERE ARE THE SCRIPTURES THAT SUPPORT THE CONCEPT OF PURGATORY?

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We do not "re-sacrifice" Jesus at the Mass. We "re-present" His one Perfect Sacrifice to the Father. As God is not limited by time, that one sacrifice is always present to Him.

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QUESTION: WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY RE-PRESENT? DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE BREAD BECOMES HIS LITERAL FLESH AND THE WINE BECOMES HIS LITERAL BLOOD, THAT A TRANSFORMATION TAKES PLACE?

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Vain repetition: How many times can you pray the Lord's Prayer before it becomes "vain repetition"?

Is Rev. 4:8 an example of vain repetition?

"The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, 8 were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come."

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RESPONSE: To pray the Lord's prayer once a day is not the same as chanting over and over, "Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus." I attended a funeral for my Grandmother who was Catholic and the Priest would no sooner end one sentence than people in the congregation would say this over and over. This is also different that giving praise unto God.

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The RCC does not make saints. It simply holds up certain holy men and women as examples for us to follow. Much as Paul tells us to imitate him.

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QUESTION: WHERE DOES THE BIBLE GRANT US THE AUTHORITY TO DECIDE WHO QUALIFIES AS A SAINT? AM I MISTAKEN, OR DOESN'T THE RCC SELECT PEOPLE OF THEIR CHOOSING FOR SAINTHOOD?

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Jesus said Peter is the rock on which He will build his church, not me. The RCC teaches that Jesus is the foundation; Peter and his successors are the earthly rock built upon the

foundation which is Jesus.

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RESPONSE: JESUS DID NOT SAY PETER IS THE ROCK ON WHICH HE WOULD BUILD HIS CHURCH. HE SAID THAT UPON PETER'S CONFESSION THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD HE WOULD BUILD HIS CHURCH.

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Eternal life: the Bible tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. It assures salvation only to those who finish the race. I don't believe the OSAS doctrine.

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RESPONSE: I AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS POINT. I HAVE EVEN BEEN LINKED TO YOUR CHURCH FOR AGREEING WITH THIS POSITION, BUT IT IS OBVIOUS THAT IN MANY OTHER AREAS, THERE ARE A GREAT DEAL OF DIFFERENCED.

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Each of your accusations could be a thread in themselves. If you are serious about wanting to understand why the RCC teaches what it teaches, go for it, and start a thread.

If you want to talk anti-Biblical practices, show me where in the Bible it states that women can preach the Gospel and lead churches?

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RESPONSE: I ALSO DO NOT AGREE WITH WOMEN PASTORING CHURCHES AND NEITHER DO MANY OF THE PROTESTANT CHURCHES. THIS IS AN AREA OF DIVISION. THE SAME CAN BE SAID OF WOMEN PREACHERS. SOME CHURCHES ACCEPT THEM AND OTHERS DO NOT.

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Anyway, back to Sola Scriptura.

You and others repeat several times 2 Tim 3:16-17. And yes, all Scripture IS inspired by God profitable. However, that verse does not say ONLY Scripture.

God did not only leave us a book; He left us a Church. Jesus did not write a book; he established a Church. Up until about 500 years ago, we were all part of that same church and all professed the same beliefs. The RCC has not changed its doctrines, so....???

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QUESTION: IS IT YOUR POSITION AND THAT OF THE RCC THAT THERE ARE OTHER BOOKS THAT ARE EQUAL TO THE 66 BOOKS THAT MAKE UP THE BIBLICAL CANON? IF THERE ARE, WHO DETERMINES WHAT THEY ARE AND WHY SHOULD WE TRUST THEIR JUDGEMENT?

THE CHURCH GOD LEFT US BEGAN IN ACTS 2, LONG BEFORE THE BIRTH OF THE RCC, SO YOU ARE NOT THE OLDEST CHURCH. UP UNTIL 500 YEARS AGO, IT WAS EASY TO KEEP EVERYONE DECEIVED BECAUSE THE GENERAL PUBLIC DIDN'T HAVE THE BIBLE READILY AVAILABLE TO READ FOR THEMSELVES.

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You guys keep throwing out the same 2 or 3 verses to claim Sola Scriptura. I've given you at least 16 that support oral Tradition. Just because you say, "the only record we now have of those traditions is in Scripture"...doesn't make it so.

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QUESTION: WHAT ARE THESE 16 SCRIPTURES? IN ADDITION, WE THEN MUST ASK THE QUESTION, WHAT ORAL TRADITION? THERE IS ORAL TRADITION FROM ALL OVER THE PLACE INCLUDING GNOSTIC TEXTS. WHO DECIDES WHAT IS RELIABLE AND WHY SHOULD WE TRUST THEM?

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RCC dotrine is in keeping with the practice of the early Church because it obeys the Biblical command to hold fast to the traditions. Others have gone astray, because they refuse to submit to the authority of the Church to interpret Scripture. An authority given by God, and protected by the Holy Spirit.

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RESPONSE: AGAIN, WE MUST ASK OURSELVES WHAT TRADITIONS? I WOULD ARGUE IT IS NOT THE TRADITIONS OF THE RCC WHICH CAME AFTER THE CHURCH BORN IN ACTS 2, BUT IT IS THE TRADITIONS OF THE ORIGINAL APOSTLES. IF YOU CAN CLAIM THE RCC HAS SUCH AUTHORITY, I CAN ARGUE THE SAME AUTHORITY CAN BELONG TO ANY CHURCH GROUP THAT EXISTED BEFORE US BECAUSE THEY ALL HAVE TRADITIONS. I COULD BE A FOLLOWER OF LUTHER, CALVIN, WESTLEY, OR ANY OTHER EARLY CHURCH LEADER. YES, THE RCC WAS BEFORE THEM, BUT THE APOSTLES WERE BEFORE THE RCC AND THEIR TRADITIONS ARE CONTAINED IN THE BIBLE.

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Please understand, the pope and the magisterium is ONLY infallible when teaching faith and morals to the faithful. It applies only in very specific circumstances. The Pope sins. He is not an infallible human being, per se.

The RCC holds to Traditions because the Bible commands us to do so. Period.

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RESPONSE: AGAIN, WHAT TRADITIONS? JUDAISM EXISTED BEFORE CHRISTIANITY. THEY HAVE TRADITIONS AS WELL. SHOULD WE FOLLOW ALL OF THEM? I BELIEVE IN FOLLOWING THE TRADITIONS OF THE APOSTLES FOUND IN SCRIPTURE, BUT NOT THE TRADITIONS OF EVERY RELIGIOUS GROUP THAT HAS FORMED SINCE.

Move this to your own thread and I will meet you there.

F

[apothanein kerdos]

Where in Scripture is this Protestant tenet?

You don't even know what sola scriptura is, so you really shouldn't try to debate it.

Aall sola scriptura, as the reformers taught it, means is that the Bible is the final authority on all things. In other words, tradition, new findings, or anything else that contradicts scripture simply is not truth. The problem Catholics have is that your tradition contradicts certain aspects of scripture, therefore you have to choose which one is more powerful and more important.

And before you come back with the pre-written reply that you learned in confirmation, tradition did not form scripture. Had it, we would have extra Gospels including the heretical Gnostic gospels. Instead, there were qualitative methods and tests to determine what was and wasn't scripture. There was also inspired and cannonized up front, and other books that were not considerd on an equal level but still of importance.

[tah]

"And only scripture makes sense. Anything not scripture cannot be proven to be from God. We KNOW that we are on solid ground when dealing with scripture."

This is not really addressing the issue of authority. Lots of things make sense that aren't in Scripture. When I put gas in my car it runs. When I am hungry and eat I feel better. That makes sense but its not in the Bible. All good gifts are from God whether they are in the Bible or not. I don't get your argument. The Bible provides all we need for faith and practice but it is not a mere code book for living. You cannot learn how to perform brain surgery by reading the Bible so you say that gift is not from God?

gas in my car ....

I guess tractor would be more appropriate here..

Deu 25:4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

and eat I feel better....

1Sa 28:22 Now therefore, I pray thee, hearken thou also unto the voice of thine handmaid, and let me set a morsel of bread before thee; and eat, that thou mayest have strength, when thou goest on thy way.

Golly but I hope you all have a sense of humor....

[chrismarc]

sw says:

chrismarc, I am not trying to hijack your thread. In the context of Scripture Alone, the Roman Catholic denial of that concept is largely based on the authority of the office of the Pope. By proving that no such office exists in and from Scripture, I hope to begin to establish that God's Word, and not the church and pope, is the final authority. I think that is reasonable but would welcome a ruling from a moderator if it is not.

The denial of this concept is based on Scripture which

tell us the Word of God is both written and oral (Tradition).

You are attemptiing to deflect into another Protest-ant

denial of Church teaching. It would be best handled in a

separate thread, but i am not a moderator on this list.

[chrismarc]

apothanein kerdos said,

Aall sola scriptura, as the reformers taught it, means

is that the Bible is the final authority on all things.

Very well - where does the Bible say this?