Original Sin

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

I believe that the crux of Ernies argument is this;

He was not created to sin, but without the power within himself to sustain himself, he was doomed from the start - for the creature was created in vanity - IN HOPE by God Himself.

You see, you cannot seperate the relationship from the sin. The sin caused the seperation. Adam needed Jesus Christ, God, to maintain His relationship. When he decided to be like God rather than rely on God thus giving God the Glory. He sinned and so died in seperation.

It is a surety that Adam was not Created for sin. He was Created to give Glory to God.

The Bible speaks of a Christ being prepared from the foundation of all Creation.

1Pe

[Dad Ernie]

Thus we see that God had a plan even for Adam.

Adam was created for Christ and Christ Was, is, and will be for Adam.

Thank you Matthitjah,

No matter how I explained myself, both Tess and Apo leave portions of what I said out of their quotes. I told them once that God had an eternal plan, even for Adam, and thus Christ was necessary. They equate being created "fraile" with God creating sin, which He most certainly did not. I have shown the Greek for "vanity" and for "creature", yet they would rather not examine Romans 8:20 in light of the fact that ALL of creation was subjected to a "frail" condition, lower than the angels and having no inherent life in themselves to sustain them. I do not understand how they arrived at their paradigm, other than taking a concensus of prior expositors and establishing their beliefs. I see the Book of Life as written from the very foundation of the earth and all the names that were to be in it, were already there. I believe Adam's name is there and we shall see him when we get to glory. Christ is the ONLY way to salvation, and as you have pointed out, the Tree of Life, is a type, forshadowing the Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessings & again thanks for the help.

Dad Ernie

[apothanein kerdos]

You see, you cannot seperate the relationship from the sin. The sin caused the seperation. Adam needed Jesus Christ, God, to maintain His relationship. When he decided to be like God rather than rely on God thus giving God the Glory. He sinned and so died in seperation.

The fact remains that Adam was not created with a need for salvation. Yes, at the point he sinned he began to need Christ for salvation, however prior to this he had no need. If he was created with a need for salvation that was later to be fulfilled in the death of Christ, then his creation was absurd.

t is a surety that Adam was not Created for sin. He was Created to give Glory to God.

The Bible speaks of a Christ being prepared from the foundation of all Creation.

1Pe 1:20

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Thus we see that God had a plan even for Adam.

Adam was created for Christ and Christ Was, is, and will be for Adam.

This still ignores the fact that Christ came because of what Adam did. Yes, it was preordained, yet why does Paul tell us Christ came do die? To reverse what Adam had done. All this does is establish that God knew Adam would sin and therefore ordained Christ to die to reverse the effects of sin. This does not establish that Adam was created in sin, in need, in imperfection, or in need of Christ for salvation.

They equate being created "fraile" with God creating sin, which He most certainly did not. I have shown the Greek for "vanity" and for "creature", yet they would rather not examine Romans 8:20 in light of the fact that ALL of creation was subjected to a "frail" condition, lower than the angels and having no inherent life in themselves to sustain them. I do not understand how they arrived at their paradigm, other than taking a concensus of prior expositors and establishing their beliefs. I see the Book of Life as written from the very foundation of the earth and all the names that were to be in it, were already there. I believe Adam's name is there and we shall see him when we get to glory. Christ is the ONLY way to salvation, and as you have pointed out, the Tree of Life, is a type, forshadowing the Lord Jesus Christ.

Well that's a load of poo. For one, you "showed" the Greek which I in turn looked at the actual Greek and gave you a proper interpretation. You used a concordance. I used the actual language in context. We went over this, remember? Why don't you just go back to the topic? Is it because it would require you to actually respond to what I said?

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

AK,

I haven't claimed that Adam was Created for sin nor in sin.

However Jesus Christ was pre-ordained. This tells me that Adam had a need for Jesus Christ even prior to his formation from dust. God knew it and made plans for it.

As a matter of fact God had you and I in mind at the time He created all of this as well. Therefore Jesus Christ was not only pre-ordained for Adam but you and I as well.

What does that tell you about what God knew about his Creation?

Peace,

Dave

[apothanein kerdos]

Grace to you,

AK,

I haven't claimed that Adam was Created for sin nor in sin.

However Jesus Christ was pre-ordained. This tells me that Adam had a need for Jesus Christ even prior to his formation from dust. God knew it and made plans for it.

As a matter of fact God had you and I in mind at the time He created all of this as well. Therefore Jesus Christ was not only pre-ordained for Adam but you and I as well.

What does that tell you about what God knew about his Creation?

Peace,

Dave

And I'm saying the reason he was preordained is because God knew he would fall and there would be a need. The problem with this is that it's going to lead to a predestination debate (ick). I think we can both agree that God does not view time in a linear fashion and therefore saw the fall occuring before it happened, remembered the fall after it happened, and all of this occured before it really happened. What we do know, that I think you keep ignoring in analyzing this issue, is that Paul states very specifically that Christ came to redeem what Adam did. Therefore, if salvation is based upon the reversal of Adam's sin, then Adam in his pre-fall state had no need for salvation in Christ. It wasn't until he had already sinned.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Apo,

You still have not answered the question: Was Christ made in the image of Adam pre or post fall? Is it not said that He was created a little lower than the angels? What does that mean to you? Under one topic you said that Adam was created "perfect", in this topic you say that he was not. Which is it? Somewhere you got to get your ducks in a row.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[apothanein kerdos]

Greetings Apo,

You still have not answered the question: Was Christ made in the image of Adam pre or post fall? Is it not said that He was created a little lower than the angels? What does that mean to you? Under one topic you said that Adam was created "perfect", in this topic you say that he was not. Which is it? Somewhere you got to get your ducks in a row.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

This is, once again, a misrepresentation of what I've said.

In one topic I said that Adam was created perfect. I have constantly said that Adam has been made perfect. What I am saying, however, is that he lost this completeness and perfection at the point he chose to rebel against God. I have been extremely consistent on this and you are simply misrepresenting the facts...I would almost say on purpose because I have already addressed this.

As for Christ, He was made in a post-fall state (able to die, be injured, etc) but without a sin nature. If He had been made in a pre-fall state then He could not have died, could not have been injured, etc.

[chrismarc]

horizoneast said,

The scriptures you quote do not say babies are born sinners.

What act of sinning can a baby possibly commit?

It says all are sinners (all means no exceptions)

and ' sin entered the world through one man (Adam),

thus sin was in the world. '

"... just as sin entered the world through one man, and death

through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all

sinned

[eric]

Hello again,

We are going nowhere only going round in circles. So from the top.

The last verse of the first chapter, it said that God looked over His creation and behold it was very good. To my reasoning, that means that there was no sin in Adam. So everything was hunky dory. We also know through John's gospel that Jesus was there also. Now my question.

Did God know that Adam would definitely be tempted and eat from the wrong tree or did He think there was a possibility that Adam would eat of the *good* tree forever having no need to have a contingency plan to become flesh and dwell among men Himself

Of course we all know that Adam did ignore God's warning and that's why we are here today. Now everyone needs Jesus and so did Adam and I think I have to switch sides after reading all the thread a say Adam didn't need Him at his creation, because Jesus came to take away the sins of the world,....not to prevent sin.

So much to learn and so little time,

eric

[apothanein kerdos]

Hello again,

We are going nowhere only going round in circles. So from the top.

The last verse of the first chapter, it said that God looked over His creation and behold it was very good. To my reasoning, that means that there was no sin in Adam. So everything was hunky dory. We also know through John's gospel that Jesus was there also. Now my question.

Did God know that Adam would definitely be tempted and eat from the wrong tree or did He think there was a possibility that Adam would eat of the *good* tree forever having no need to have a contingency plan to become flesh and dwell among men Himself

Of course we all know that Adam did ignore God's warning and that's why we are here today. Now everyone needs Jesus and so did Adam and I think I have to switch sides after reading all the thread a say Adam didn't need Him at his creation, because Jesus came to take away the sins of the world,....not to prevent sin.

So much to learn and so little time,

I think that God knew Adam would deny Him, yet He sent Christ as a response (or even part of HIs plan) to reverse what Adam did. This is why, in a salvation sense, Adam did not need Christ pre-fall. Post-fall most definately.