Original Sin

[st. Worm]

Dad Ernie says:

"But the child must come to a place when they learn of the commandment."

SW asks:

How does a child (or anyone) learn of the Law or the commandment?

[Smalcald]

Well it comes down to confusion about sin.

Most of us don't even know when we are sinning, our very thoughts are sickening to God, we are dead, we can't think or do or believe our way out of this body of death, there is nothing we can do. The Law gives us a hint about how sinful we are but only a hint, by ourselves we cannot help but sin, it is something that is in all human beings from conception on.

Does this mean that little babies are evil? Certainly not, as Christ says, they are the ones we should base our faith on, babies, and little children have what we are to have, a child like innocent faith in God, so strong that they believe it as they believe that the sun will rise tomorrow.

Who do we trust, this is what it comes down to. Do we trust in our human innocence, the innocence of a child? Or do we trust in God, we must only trust in God. I mean I would like to believe my daughter is sinless, she certainly seems that way to me, but I trust in God to save her, I don't trust in her human innocence or her own merit, or any human beings innocence to saver her.

Everyone needs Christ, from the highest intellectual, to the mentally delayed, to babies, we all need God, there is no salvation outside of Christ and His redemptive power.

[Guest silent_cry]

First of all, Adam was given the commandment not to eat of the fruit, not Eve. Adam simply passed that knowledge on to her. She ate being deceived yet he wilfully transgressed God's commandment to him. Also in the Bible when it came to inheritance it was based on the Father, not the Mother. Sin is the same way. It comes down through the man, not the woman.

ok, but here's a question then (and I don't mean this to hijack the thread). If everything is passed down on the father's line, how can Jesus be a decendant of David if God himself was the father? The beginnging of matthew is all about the geneology of Jesus, but Joseph had no part in the conception of Jesus. How is it that Jesus is the son David then?

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: ELSE WERE YOUR CHILDREN UNCLEAN; BUT NOW ARE THEY HOLY.

I honestly don't understand this verse. What does it mean to be "sanctified" then? What context is this in? Is this really how God sees children of unbelieving parents? As unclean things which are cast from his sight? Deos anyone else agree with, what I see is a rather unjust way of viewing children?

[Spunky]

Just want to state this point if it's not obvious to others!

Corinthians Chapter 7:12,13,and 14

As for the other matter, although I know nothing

the Lord has said, I say:If any brother has a wife

who is and who is an unbeliever but is willing to

live with him, he must not divorce her!And if any

woman has a husband who is an unbeliever but is

willing to live with her,she must not divorce him.

The unbelieving husband is consecrated by his

believing wife;the unbelieving wife is consecrated

by her believing husband.If it were itherwise,

your children should be unclean;but as it is, they are holy.

7:12 As for the other matter , although I know nothing

the Lord has said, I say:

(shows us the words and passages that follow are the

writer's views not the Lord's)

God Bless

[Kabowd]

Yes, we are born with the ability to sin, but we are NOT born with sin automatically imputed on us that somebody else committed.

We cannot over look what was written in Ezekiel about NOT inheriting our foathers sin.

Ezekiel 18:19-20 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

We were all born perefect until we started sinning. We did not start out with sin.

We were shapen in sin because we are all born into a sinful world with the ability of sinning like verybody else. Remember, for all have sinned and come short of the glory.

How do you reconcile your belief with Romans 5:12-21? Or John 3:1-12? Ephesians 2:1-5? Psalm 51:5? 1 Corinthians 15:21-22? You've repeatedly used these same two verses (which, incidentally, were directed towards the Jews and were PRE-Christ, i.e. prior to grace), and neglect to address the numerous other verses that stand directly opposed to these two you use. Your view fails theologically and historically. Let's look at Romans 5:12-21 specifically:

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." ~ Rom 5:12-21

1. Paul says that death is the result of sin (this is reiterated in Romans 6:23). If death is the result of sin, and infants are innocent, why do some infants die? They haven't sinned, therefore in your view are not guilty, so why do some die?

2. In the underlined portion above, Paul clarifies that even those who have not sinned like Adam still suffer consequences...still die. Notice also, he's reminding us that the people who lived between Adam and Moses didn't have God's written laws yet. They didn't have the Ten Commandments to go by, BUT THEY STILL DIED. Why? Because death is the result of sin....and we are all guilty.

3. Paul repeatedly points out "through one man", "one sin" and contrasts that with Christ as the "One" who's obedience and "one act of righteousness" will bring justification to all men. If you deny that we all became guilty through the sin of Adam, you must also deny that we can all become righteous through Christ. These two are intimately linked together and all of Paul's writings echoe this theology.

4. As if the majority of Romans wasn't sufficient enough, Paul also confirms this again in 1 Corinthians 15:21-22:

"For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive." ~ 1Cr 15:21-22

Now, until you can address these multiple verses with proper exegesis and offer counter interpretation, please refrain from throwing out those same two verses as justification for a doctrine that doesn't hold up to the rest of Scripture.

[Dad Ernie]

Dad Ernie says:

"But the child must come to a place when they learn of the commandment."

SW asks:

How does a child (or anyone) learn of the Law or the commandment?

Greetings SW,

Today, we have the Word of God to reveal to us His commandments, however, it is "spiritual" and we are "unspiritual". It takes being born again in the spirit before we can understand it:

1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So still the best way to receive the Gospel - even "the commandment", this is the way:

Romans 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

So the one on one approach is best as shown here:

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

Acts 8:26-39 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. 27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

And so it often takes someone else to "explain" the scriptures until one has received the Holy Spirit that will "reveal the truth to them."

Hope that answers your question.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Tess,

You post the verse, but you don't understand it. When Adam sinned - death entered into the world and was passed to all his progeny, including us. Physical death or spiritual death? We find that we are "separated from God", and when we are separated from Him, we have NO LIFE in us. This is the case with even newborns. They are born into a life of death, unless revived by the Spirit of God. Sin need not be present to be in this state, for we are not living in the Garden of Eden, nor in the New Heavens and New Earth. We live "spiritually" right now in the Kingdom of God, and there, there is life in the Son.

You say that even the unbeliever is created in the image of God, yet, you add the words "the image of God is marred". How can that be? Is God marred? When God looks at Jesus is that reflection Marred? If you are in Christ, God the Father SEES CHRIST. The rest of the world is DEAD to God. He does not hear their prayers, He does not acknowledge them for they are DEAD. Doesn't that make sense to you? Why does anyone die - physically? It is because DEATH reigns in this world, all because of Adam's sin and this death is imposed upon every one of us. NOT that Adam's sin is imposed upon us. Because even a newborn is DEAD to God, until they are born again they cannot be made alive. But you know what? Jesus has been prayin for all those babies since before the foundation of the world and He says: "Suffer the little children to come unto me." So I am not fearful for those babies and children who supposedly have never received Christ, because it is for their own sin they would have died and without the law there is no sin.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[EricH]

Perhaps the OP should define what they mean by Original Sin

[st. Worm]

QUOTE(st. Worm @ Apr 24 2006, 12:37 PM)

Dad Ernie says:

"But the child must come to a place when they learn of the commandment."

SW asks:

How does a child (or anyone) learn of the Law or the commandment?

Dad Ernie's response:

Greetings SW,

Today, we have the Word of God to reveal to us His commandments, however, it is "spiritual" and we are "unspiritual". It takes being born again in the spirit before we can understand it:

1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So still the best way to receive the Gospel - even "the commandment", this is the way:

Romans 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

So the one on one approach is best as shown here:

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

Acts 8:26-39 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. 27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

And so it often takes someone else to "explain" the scriptures until one has received the Holy Spirit that will "reveal the truth to them."

Hope that answers your question.

Blessings,

SW says:

Dad Ernie, if you are attempting to answer my second question above, I understand you to be saying in your closing sentence that one must have the Scriptures "explained" to them before they come under the condemnation of the law. I gather you believe that is how infants learn of the Law since that is my question. I take from your example of the eunich of Acts 8, that you possibly believe that he would not be condemned unless he had heard the explanation by Phillip and then rejected the message.

However I was wondering what your view is of Romans Chaper 2 where Paul explains why both Jew and Gentile are under sin and condemned. He states that even though Gentiles did not have the written law, they were just as condemned under the law as the Jews, since the law of God was written on their heart. The point by Paul is that no one is excluded and that all mankind has come under the condemnation of God. He offers no exception or exclusion, not even for infants. For it is not consciousness of breaking the law that makes one a law breaker or even having the written code presented to them in a scheme of decision. We stand condemned because of our nature as sinners, a nature and condemnaton inherited from our father Adam.

Adults and infants are never fully conscious of being violators of God's law yet are judged guilty anyway. What we refer to as original sin is part of our natural condition and because of it we commit sins in thought, word and deed non-stop. Sin is not just what we do. It is what we are. We do not need to told the 10 commandments to be judged guilty. We are already so. As Calvin said, "babies are as depraved as rats" and we all can attest to their utter selfishness and self-centered demands that they show on a continual basis. Yes, they need the Gospel and Christ as much as the rest of us.

The "old Adam", the original sin which we all carry, including infants, cannot be changed or reformed. He can only be put to death by the law and resurrected anew in Christ as we stay in a mode of continual lifelong repentance by faith. This is a lifelong process that continues until our death or Christ's return. As Lutherans are fond of saying, the old Adam is drowned in the waters of baptism, but he is an excellent swimmer!

sw

[nanasimmons]

We are all born with a sin nature, by nature we are opposed/enemies to God. The natural man does not recieve the things of the Spirit of God,nor can he know them because the natural man is unspiritual by nature.And spiritual things are foolishness to him.

By one man's disobedience many were made sinners,moreover the law entered that the offence might abound, I would not have known sin except through the law,I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, you shall not covet.

But sin taking opportunity by the commandment,produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came,sin rived(became/brought to life/alive,consciousness of) and I died.