Original Sin

[st. Worm]

horizoneast says:

We are all accountable to God for our own sin

[EricH]

SW says:

And of course that is not what the biblical doctrine of original sins says. Surprise, surprise. We are not conceived responsible for anyone else's sins. We are condemned at conception because we are sinners at conception just as David says he was. Actual sin immediately follows but the condemnation is there regardless of the acts of sin that follow. Its frightening what is passing for biblical teaching on this subject these days. First the Pelagian heresy is rehashed but even worse some believe sin is not sin unless we understand and perceive it to be sin. Soon, sin will be denied completely.

That is right. We are not held accountable for the individual sins of Adam. That is a straw man. However God held the human race corporately reponsible and thus all were condemned through Adam. Not because of individual sins commited, but because of the corruption that is now passed down from parents to children. The human race has been stained by guilt. The image of God has been marred.

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Romans 5:18 NASB

That can't get much clearer. Condemnation to all men came through one transgression. This is nothing new in scripture (the idea of corporate responsibility). When Achan sinned the text says that "All of Israel sinned"

Romans 5:13-14 provides an interesting counter to Horizon's position:

For until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Romans 5:13-14 NASB

According to Horizon, condemnation can only be handed down to an individual who commits an infraction against the law. According to Paul, between Adam and Moses, the law did not exist, so sins were not inputed (counted as infractions against the law), yet death and sin still reigned. Death still reigned not because of infractions against the law that people did not yet know, but because condemnation was handed down through the one transgression.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings,

I have not departed, but have been watching the dialogue and just letting the Lord lead my heart and thoughts. Yesterday I listened to a sermon on the radio which brought out the purpose of man, which is and has always been "to glorify God". This was the purpose even of Adam, but as has been told, he fell short of it. This capability to sin was intrinsic in him. It was not something new, but he was subject to the "frailties of the flesh", even as we all are. There is no difference. Give Adam a chance to sin, or give us a chance to sin, what happens? Does God have in him the "ability to sin"? Of course not, so where did this ugly serpant rear its ugly head? It certainly was NOT of God. God can do nothing that goes against His perfect will and character. How so with Adam? If Adam, as some would believe, had this capability, again I ask where did it come from?

The alternative solution to this is that the Glory of God is found in Christ, and in HIM ALONE. Adam needed Christ just as much as we do today to overcome that fleshly nature with which we and Adam were born. When Apo and Tess can answer this with some amount of reasonability, I will discuss it further.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

P.S. The preacher went on to discuss the Westminister Chaticism (sp?) and that not glorifying God in all that we do, say and think is sin.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

That is right. We are not held accountable for the individual sins of Adam. That is a straw man. However God held the human race corporately reponsible and thus all were condemned through Adam. Not because of individual sins commited, but because of the corruption that is now passed down from parents to children. The human race has been stained by guilt. The image of God has been marred.

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Romans 5:18 NASB

That can't get much clearer. Condemnation to all men came through one transgression. This is nothing new in scripture (the idea of corporate responsibility). When Achan sinned the text says that "All of Israel sinned"

Romans 5:13-14 provides an interesting counter to Horizon's position:

For until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Romans 5:13-14 NASB

According to Horizon, condemnation can only be handed down to an individual who commits an infraction against the law. According to Paul, between Adam and Moses, the law did not exist, so sins were not inputed (counted as infractions against the law), yet death and sin still reigned. Death still reigned not because of infractions against the law that people did not yet know, but because condemnation was handed down through the one transgression.

Bravisimo brother Eric.

Adam needed Christ just as much as we do today to overcome that fleshly nature with which we and Adam were born.

Now that is profound and deep. This thread has taken a positive turn. Thank you brother Ernie. Now if you will? Please explain why for all those interested. I have some idea, yet it seems your take will enlighten and broaden the depths.

P.S. The preacher went on to discuss the Westminister Chaticism (sp?) and that not glorifying God in all that we do, say and think is sin.

Amen! Thanks again brother Ernie for adding to the understanding here.

Peace,

Dave

[Dad Ernie]

Adam needed Christ just as much as we do today to overcome that fleshly nature with which we and Adam were born.

Now that is profound and deep. This thread has taken a positive turn. Thank you brother Ernie. Now if you will? Please explain why for all those interested. I have some idea, yet it seems your take will enlighten and broaden the depths.

Greetings Matthitjah,

I wish I could take credit for this "profound and deep" statement. But a prior poster already mentioned that man was created to glorify God, I just added what I had heard from the preacher. I agree whole heartedly. Because the Holy Spirit had not been given, Adam could not have pleased God. Jesus was given the Holy Spirit "without measure". After Pentecost, we have received the Holy Spirit by measure, according to the grace God extends to us. Adam was doomed to fall because he was neither perfect, nor had he been "bought with the price of the blood of our Lord Jesus". God never changes and it takes the shedding of innocent blood to cover our sins. Up until the first advent of Christ, the shedding of blood of animals provided a temporary measure whereby the saints of God could continue to commune with Him. But when Jesus descended, he preached to the prisoners held by the law until His time. Adam most assuredly was one of those preached to and I am convinced we shall see him in glory.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[apothanein kerdos]

Greetings,

I have not departed, but have been watching the dialogue and just letting the Lord lead my heart and thoughts. Yesterday I listened to a sermon on the radio which brought out the purpose of man, which is and has always been "to glorify God". This was the purpose even of Adam, but as has been told, he fell short of it. This capability to sin was intrinsic in him. It was not something new, but he was subject to the "frailties of the flesh", even as we all are. There is no difference. Give Adam a chance to sin, or give us a chance to sin, what happens? Does God have in him the "ability to sin"? Of course not, so where did this ugly serpant rear its ugly head? It certainly was NOT of God. God can do nothing that goes against His perfect will and character. How so with Adam? If Adam, as some would believe, had this capability, again I ask where did it come from?

The alternative solution to this is that the Glory of God is found in Christ, and in HIM ALONE. Adam needed Christ just as much as we do today to overcome that fleshly nature with which we and Adam were born. When Apo and Tess can answer this with some amount of reasonability, I will discuss it further.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

P.S. The preacher went on to discuss the Westminister Chaticism (sp?) and that not glorifying God in all that we do, say and think is sin.

This is pure heresy, and this was proven in a topic that actually dealt with it. You are saying that God created man to sin or with an inheret sin nature, this is heretical. There's no getting around it. I showed this in the other topic, but you realized you were in over your head, so now you are in this topic, attempting to rehashing it. At least be consistent and go back to that topic and debate it straight up instead of trying to sneak it in on another topic.

[nanasimmons]

This may just seem like a childish answer to many posters, but from what I believe it only took one sinnless person to bring salvation to man kind.

So all through the history of human life, since the fall there was NOT ONE until Christ. The Cathlics try to say Mary was sinnless, If she was then she could have died on the cross instead of Jesus, But we know that she wasn't because only God is sinnless.

In the same manner, if even one child was born sinnless, a spotless,blemish free human being, wouldn't that had reliquished the idea of needing Christ?

I have heard it said that the mothers blood never mixes with the unborn baby and the baby has the blood of the father.......which in this case would be the HEAVENLY FATHERS sinnless blood, not fallen man's blood.

My2cents, Nana

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Brother Ernie,

Greetings Matthitjah,

I wish I could take credit for this "profound and deep" statement. But a prior poster already mentioned that man was created to glorify God, I just added what I had heard from the preacher. I agree whole heartedly. Because the Holy Spirit had not been given, Adam could not have pleased God. Jesus was given the Holy Spirit "without measure". After Pentecost, we have received the Holy Spirit by measure, according to the grace God extends to us. Adam was doomed to fall because he was neither perfect, nor had he been "bought with the price of the blood of our Lord Jesus". God never changes and it takes the shedding of innocent blood to cover our sins. Up until the first advent of Christ, the shedding of blood of animals provided a temporary measure whereby the saints of God could continue to commune with Him. But when Jesus descended, he preached to the prisoners held by the law until His time. Adam most assuredly was one of those preached to and I am convinced we shall see him in glory.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

This is not quite what I had in mind. However it does open the door in the general direction of Adam needing Christ.

When I further have time. I would like to give my thoughts. Although they will require prayer and are not yet complete.

I was thinking along the lines of the fellowship between God and man which was forever seperated at Adams sin. You see, we all need God, some just won't admit it. I have to imagine it was a very sad day when God could no longer walk in the Garden in the Cool of the day with His children.Yet it is a most joyous occasion each and every time a sinner is Saved and walks right into His presence for the first time.

Peace,

Dave

[Dad Ernie]

This is pure heresy, and this was proven in a topic that actually dealt with it. You are saying that God created man to sin or with an inheret sin nature, this is heretical. There's no getting around it. I showed this in the other topic, but you realized you were in over your head, so now you are in this topic, attempting to rehashing it. At least be consistent and go back to that topic and debate it straight up instead of trying to sneak it in on another topic.

Greetings Apo,

I left the other topic on the "image of God" because I addressed specific issues and scriptures, even as in this topic and you and Tess refused to address them. I did not continue in that forum also because your attitude is one of high and pious supposed knowledge. Actually you are trying to shove your paradigm down my throat and I did not feel it was worth the effort to convince you "by scripture".

You seem to think that Adam's eternal soul did not need Christ - THAT IS HERESY, as you are so fond of saying. I suggest you take a breather and if you are a teacher like you think you are, then perhaps you might show a little more humility in your posts, gently instructing, instead of sitting on your high horse attempting to drown out opposing voices by your supposed head knowledge. A disciple of Christ IS A LEARNER - are you one?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Dad Ernie]

I was thinking along the lines of the fellowship between God and man which was forever seperated at Adams sin. You see, we all need God, some just won't admit it. I have to imagine it was a very sad day when God could no longer walk in the Garden in the Cool of the day with His children.Yet it is a most joyous occasion each and every time a sinner is Saved and walks right into His presence for the first time.

Greetings Matthitjah,

Isn't this verse interesting, especially the part I highlighted:

1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Without a doubt the angels were created first before Adam. Their knowledge is so vast, yet they cannot see the end, as can God. So God created man - lower than the angels. Without their power, without their knowledge, without ever seeing death as man was soon to experience. I am sure those angels looked upon Adam and asked in their hearts(?) "What is God going to do with such a frail, puny creature?" Then to top it off, as to prove a point, Adam sinned and separated man from God. He was not created to sin, but without the power within himself to sustain himself, he was doomed from the start - for the creature was created in vanity - IN HOPE by God Himself.

Glory is given to God when man finally realizes he is but a passing wind, here today and gone tomorrow. He is as nothing before God and even the angels - yet as we are told, we shall judge even the angels. From a humanist viewpoint, I can imagine why Satan hates mankind. When we go before a judge on this earth, we hope to be tried by a jury of our "peers". Yet we are so much lower than the angels and we shall judge them. Can you just imagine Satan's fury over this. It is no wonder He uses every trick in the book to destroy our relationship with Christ. But Christ came to destroy that hold that Satan had "under the law". Our faith in Christ is what sustains us and gives us the strength to resist all the wiles of the enemy.

Isn't God just great?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie