SCIENCE!!!

[Michael333]

Very well put Timbo!

[Fiosh]

Daniel Dennett finally said something I can wholeheartedly agree with, and I quote:

" BUT, as far as we know today, we are God's"

Yes, Danny, we ARE God's............we belong to Him.

[CSLewis]

Why is evolution so threatening to some christians? When we as christians put our faith and trust in our own understanding we limit our ability to witness.

If on the third day God made divisions of day and night then how long were the first two days?

Why are there two creation stories?

If man was made out of the dust of the earth how did God do it?

There are so many contradictions not to mention the amount of physical and archeological evidence that supports evolution that if one to believe that God's Word is inerrant one must take the creation story to be figurative and not literal.

My Bible is not a science book nor a history book but it is a religious book one in which I can grow in relationship with God.

A lot of people look for God in the black spaces- I see His beauty in evolution because He made the world to be complete and operate independently and with the ability to adapt. The counterlogic to Creation is that all we have to do is look at physical evidence and God is disproven. Because God is a spiritual being He will never be proven and that is were faith comes in to play.

[Jorge S]

Why is evolution so threatening to some christians? When we as christians put our faith and trust in our own understanding we limit our ability to witness.

If on the third day God made divisions of day and night then how long were the first two days?

Why are there two creation stories?

If man was made out of the dust of the earth how did God do it?

There are so many contradictions not to mention the amount of physical and archeological evidence that supports evolution that if one to believe that God's Word is inerrant one must take the creation story to be figurative and not literal.

My Bible is not a science book nor a history book but it is a religious book one in which I can grow in relationship with God.

A lot of people look for God in the black spaces- I see His beauty in evolution because He made the world to be complete and operate independently and with the ability to adapt. The counterlogic to Creation is that all we have to do is look at physical evidence and God is disproven. Because God is a spiritual being He will never be proven and that is were faith comes in to play.

Hi, brother

I would like to bring the following elements to your attention:

1- We Christians do not put our faith in our own understanding but in God's Word. Our interpretation of His Word may vary as God's Revelation develops in history, but His Word remains the same, thus enabling correction of any interpretative or doctrinary error we may incur.

2- I would not have any problem with Evolution if there was a hint of it in the Bible. Since there isn't any, I do not consider it a threat but a lie. It drives people's trust away from the Bible to place it in man's testimony. Evolution is an alternative worldview which contradicts basic Biblical teachings.

3- The Christian faith is not based in a mystical god. The Bible does not leave any doubt regarding the Reality of God, of which His Authorship and Rulership of the universe are well established and attested for. The Bible records His historic dealings with Mankind, therefore our faith is historic and objective, our God is knowable to the extend that He wants us to know Him, our relationship with Him embraces all aspects of the human nature (mind included.)

4- Our imposibility to understand how He made the Universe is not proof against the reliability of His Testimony.

5- Adaptation and Evolution are not the same thing. The former is a proven feature of life, the latter is a theory based on a particular interpretation of the available evidence. It looks like the real thing because Satan hasn't ceased to induce us into error in order to make us depart from God's Word. But it is not the real thing because the Bible does not support it.

6- Christians have an obligation to stand against false beliefs and doctrines of men, which can be discerned by the way they depart from God's Word.

7- You will need to assess how much of the Bible you see as figurative. Our faith cannot be valid if it is built upon a confusing, liberally interpreted text. The Bible is important both because of What it teaches and because of Who teaches it.

Have a blessed day.

[xyzisme]

Nothing will porve God to you like having a real relationship with him. Just the way you would with a freind. If you ask your freind for a glass of water, don't you expect him to bring it to you. Ask God for your prayers and expect him to answer them,a nd then you will see how real he can be. I can tell you many stories, ofGod proving himself to me when I beleived in him. One time I had just gotten a new job and it was in an office. I went in my closet and saw I didn't have any appropriate clothes for work. Well God had given me the job, I never even applied for it, I just got a phone call and the office manager said someone told her I was a good worker I could have it if I wanted it. Well, then I said, God I have enough slacks, but I could use a few more blouses like this one, and I touched a specific blouse in my closet. Two days later, my sister who had bought me the blouse had bought a whole set of them for herself decided she never wore them and needed room in her closet and gave those blouses to me. They were the exact same blouse as mine, just different colors. That's exactly what I asked for, and that's exactly what I got. I never even told my sister i needed clothes to go to work. I was looking for a first home, and I asked God to give me a small house, just big enough for us so i didn't have to much to clean and take care of, it needed to be close to work or on the bus line, because i don't drive, and I asked for a cherry tree because I spent many hours as a kid eating cherries while sitting in a neighbors tree, and I wanted that for my kids to. The next day i went to church and was told of a retiring couple planning to move that was selling a house. I went to see it, it had a cherry tree in the back yard. There are more, so many more stories of God answering my prayer. Let me tell you that the job I had gotten, I had prayed for while i was still in college. I met a woman taking classes that worked for the college and I thought her secretarial phone answering job seemed pretty cushy to me, so I prayed a little prayer and said lord when i get done with school a job like that would make me happy. I still had a lot of semesters to go when I said the prayer, but when the phone call came two days after I graduated, I remembered asking God for it, and he did give it to me. He doesn't always say yes to my prayers, but he always makes me understand why not, and when he does say yes, his answer is as specific as my request. That is how you prove God, after you believe in him, not before.

[EricH]

Ok what's the matter with the quotes? Sorry but it seems I can't fix them

You are onlu allowed so many quotes per post. I am not sure what the max is. You might try consolidating some of them. Its is a software issue

[Hierophant]

I was told the limit is 6 quotes before the board goes crazy.

[redeemed098]

Horizoneast, I think it's time to make a summary of our discussion in order to be able to move on. Please bear with me.

1 - In favor of evolution I "presented" all of the evidence we have that is pertinent. The fossils, the laboratory experiments and so on. I didn't and I won't copy-past all of it of course, mainly because you can go read about it anywhere you want.

However, you failed to present anything about evolution that is wrong, so until you tell me why exactly you think it isn't correct this line of our discussion is dead. I don't know how to satisfy you. You can keep ask me for evidence but my answer will always be "as far as I know all of the evidence backs it up". I don't think there is a part of the evidence that backs it up more than all the rest of it, indeed the evidence as a whole backs up evolution so well that it's considered a fact. I am not aware of any problem with evolution whatsoever. I know about those brought forth by ID proponents but those are invalid. If you think some of their claims about the incorrectness of evolution are valid then tell me which ones, at least give me some name, then I can explain why I think they are invalid. Either you enlighten me or we drop the subject.

2 - About the beginning of the universe I told you and I'm telling you again that the universe could have had a beginning. It could also have not had it. If it had a beginning time and space came into being together and that clarifies why I said "the universe always existed". If you don't get this last part or if you think it's incorrect, just drop it. It's irrelevant. If you want to assume the universe had a beginning that's fine, for the sake of keeping the discussion going I'll assume it had a beginning, too. I don't see where you're going with that but I don't care.

For the last time (must be like the third time I repeat that), yes, God could have created the universe. It is possible, in the sense that there's no way I can show God actually didn't.

About wether "God created the universe" should be chosen as the best theory, I already told you that no, it should not. There are better, more parsimonious theories; I think the best one is "the universe came into being uncaused" since it assumes less and it's assumption is consistent with what we observe about the universe and relies on the known fact that uncaused events happen.

3 - About the definition of atheism, that's only a personal attack I would like you to drop. There is only one definition of atheism, no matter who you quote and which atheist's brother died. If you insist in saying atheism definition is "there is no God" I will simply ignore you. I am also surprised that the other atheists on this board kept silent about this claim. If you don't accept the one and only definition of atheism then call me "parappa", I don't care. My position is the one of someone who didn't find any reason to believe God actually exists and has reverted to the normal position "I don't know". If you can't accept that then shoot me or hack my pc or something Besides, if you think my position is weak isn't that going to make things easier for you?

I would also ask you to stop calling my arguments emotional unless you can back up that claim. "Self-evident" isn't going to cut it. If you're a honest person I'm sure you will drop all this useless things and focus on the actual discussion, like I have done, avoiding ad hominem and similiar nonsense.

Lepacca,

Lets forget the debate and disguised arguments and the desire to puff ones self up with ego pandering rhetoric and say something simple, sharp and to the point regarding Truth OK...????

I am a follower of Christ and have placed my entire weight in Jesus Christ for the eternal salvation of my soul grounded and based in the Truth of Gods Word and by the grace of God extended to me.........You have NOT....!

I must then say to you that if both of us are to extend the same level of integrity to one another, this is the only way I can see that happening.

If you expect ME to face with integrity the futility of my own faith in Christ, then YOU also must be prepared to face the total futility of your atheism.

If you are NOT prepared to do that, then integrity is what is lacking and all you will have revealed is your desire to be RIGHT. Did you know that it's completely possible to win a debate and still be WRONG.....?

I'm not at all interested in matching wits with you Lepacca.....Nor am I interested in being boastful about mySELF. If I boast about anyone at all, it shall be The Lord Jesus. I have no desire to win a debate Lepacca. The only desire I have is see you in Heaven. I've read your posts and you seem to like the word "Honest". Honesty requires having knowledge of Truth Lepacca.....The question is.....Do you HAVE it in the first place....?? If NOT, then you cannot correctly use the word "Honest", simply because you are only being honest according your own PERCEPTION of Truth. God has NOT appealed to mens hearts and souls through the door of reason and intellect Lepacca.....He has chosen a very different way to deal with the souls of men....Through a door, YES...! But this door has a name....Jesus...The WAY has a name...Jesus... and the TRUTH has a name....You guessed it...Jesus and The LIFE, is also Jesus.

Without the WAY, there is no GOING, without the TRUTH there is no KNOWING and without the LIFE, there is no LIVING.

Don't try to intellectualise Christ because he is beyond any knowledge you can possibly comprehend with your intellect.

Repentance is the Key, Jesus is the door that the key Unlocks.....Behind it waits God....

Quit debating and get saved...!!

Edited June 15, 2006 by redeemed098

[Guest TallGoofyWhiteGuy]

...but if you ask a christian, "whys christianity true?" and theyll be just like, "well, ya just kinda know." A lot of Christians are leading a blind faith and not challenging themselves with any of these scieintific points. And sooner or later, their faith is going to be questioned as mine is now, and they are going to be in a big rut just like I am now.

That's not really true Troy. Maybe you just haven't asked the right questions or asked the right believers?

Actually he IS right. If you ask random people their faith, or religion, most will say Christianity of some denomination. The problem there is that there are a lot, if not 'most', christians who are 'convenient christians.' What I mean by this is, they believe when it is easy, or suits them, but when the chips are down, it's not the path of Christ that they follow. Be careful of who you ask, because it's a serious thing.

I also wanted to let you know that I struggle with the same things you do... I wonder about facts such as how God created man, yet there is scientific proof of evolution. If God made man, where does the 'cave man' fit into creation. How does God condemn a man to an eternity of hell, for being born and raised in a remote area in some 3rd world country with no knowledge of Christ so that he can't even make a decision. I won't go on, there are a lot of things that puzzle me, but I without a doubt believe in Christ, because I see him throughout the day. I feel God acting in my life, and there are scientists or doctors that would doubtlessly say that that's a reflection of my intense desire to be a part of something bigger, or that I WANT to believe it, so therefor I feel it. I would agree 100% with those scientists. I feel God acting in my life because I want him too, I see him because I'm looking, and my fears and concerns are answered in God's time, and I pursue those answers. Being a Christian isn't easy.

[redeemed098]

Lepacca,

Lets forget the debate and disguised arguments and the desire to puff ones self up with ego pandering rhetoric and say something simple, sharp and to the point regarding Truth OK...????

I am a follower of Christ and have placed my entire weight in Jesus Christ for the eternal salvation of my soul grounded and based in the Truth of Gods Word and by the grace of God extended to me.........You have NOT....!

Yeah, that's because I don't believe in God.

The only desire I have is see you in Heaven.

Why? I don't particularly like the Heaven thing at all. Make it an Irish pub ok? Joking

Translation+summary: quit thinking and obey the Church

No thanks. I like my brain.

Lepacca,

I know you cannot fathom the things of God, but to suggest that trusting in God requires NOT thinking and simple blind obedience to the Church is not a very thoughtful thing to say to anyone......It is simply an attempt to puff yourself up with a demonstration of your vast knowledge compared to someone elses Lack of knowledge.......Does telling someone that they don't think mean that you think any MORE than they do.....?? I think everyday, just not about the same things that you do.....Its nice to know how far the sun is from the earth and the moon and all the planets....It's nice to know the workings of certain things and the processes behind them........But Lepacca....It's only Knowledge.....I dont plan on traveling to the moon or to any of the other planets, so that info holds no value for me....I'm more interested in thinking about things that hold eternal value. I'm more interested in WHO created me than HOW I was created...

I'm not downplaying what you value. Im simply demonstrating that our values are much different....You are interested in NOW.....Im interested in MORE than just now...Im interested in knowledge that will be of benefit to me even after I die...None of this so called knowledge YOU speak of will have any value any further than THIS lifetime......Jesus said, "wherever you treasure is, that is where your heart is." What you value MOST determines where you are focused and the desires of your heart.....My Treasure is in the kingdom of God, so that is where my heart is...Your treasure is in this world, in the here and now, so that is where YOUR heart is.....It's fascinating to learn things lepacca...But I want what I learn to have eternal impact on my life.

All the knowledge in the world might be a real ego boosting experience and even earn you the much adored accolades of men who see the measure of a mans success demonstrated by how much he has or how intelligent he is.....Listen to what the Wisest man who ever lived said. "Of what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his very soul...? "

Let me ask you a simple question Lepacca.......Can your knowledge raise a man from death..?? Can your knowledge ensure that your name is written in the book of Life.....? Is God impressed with your knowedge.....?? God has answered this question for you though you won't like the answer very much.

"The worlds wisdom is foolishness in the sight of God." "For God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame those who in their own eyes are wise."

Can your vast knowledge nullify your sins before God...? Are you ready for the day of Judgement.....? If YOU demand justice when you are wronged lepacca, then do you really think that God will not demand HIS......???

I DO think Lepacca, I think very very much.....I think on the things of God and the things to come....For everything in this world is perishing...I think on things that hold eternal value because NOW thanks be to God, "He who has the Son of God has LIFE." and "has passed from death unto life."

"For God SO LOVED the WORLD, he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that whosoever believes in him shall NOT perish but have EVERLASTING LIFE." John 3:16.

You see the world IS perishing and all that is in it......That is why he promises that he who believes will NOT perish.

Regards,

Ben.