Born of God

[Scylth]

Hello -

My Bible study seems to be being destroyed because after studying 1 John, one of our members has concluded that those that are born of God, see 1 John 3:9, and other verses in chapter 3, cannot and do not sin, ever. He says that if anyone sins, it shows that they were either never "born of God" or were "born of God" and have now fallen away.

I believe that everyone who is a Christian, who have the "Spirit of Christ," are also "born of God," and that those that are "born of God" can in fact commit sin.

This disagreement has obviously caused a great divide in our little group with him now refusing to meet with us becuase we don't see this "obvious" truth presented in 1 John. If anyone has any scripture or thougths to help me I would apprecitate it.

I have pointer out 1 John 1:8 - 2:1, but he claims that John is using the "rhetorical" "we," and that those verses are referring to people prior to being "born" of God. I have pointed out Peter, and Paul saying that Peter "was to be blamed" as evidence of someone who was "born of God" who sinned, but he claims that it must not have been a sin. I don't know how to solve this problem and convince him that he is deceving himself. Any help?

[Jorge S]

... I don't know how to solve this problem and convince him that he is deceving himself. Any help?

Hi, Scylth

The reaction of your brother in Christ is the perfect example of what is being discussed. He is angry, refusing to fellowship again with you all, and holding himself in pride. As a supporter of the idea of a 'magic' and irreversible sinless regeneration he was expected to exhibit a different attitude.

Becoming a Christian does not automatically renders us equal to God, Who is the only One incapable of committing sin. We just come back into reconciliation with Him, are adopted into His Kingdom and start to be moulded in Christ's Image. It is a lifelong process to learn how to live in holiness. It is not that we sin what counts but how do we revert from sin through true repentance and learn how not to do it again with progressive spiritual growth.

The teachings of the New Testament writers are no addressed to unbelievers but to believing, church-going Christians. And they speak about sins we can commit due to ignorance, temptations or false teachings.

My own experience as a Christian is an example that we do sin after baptism. The differences I have noted as compared to when I was unsaved are:

- The Bible has given me a set of values and principles to live by. I feel freer because I have a better sense of my own boundaries.

- I have naturally and painlessly rejected things I loved before because now I know they are sinful.

- The Spirit of the Lord convicts me of what I have done wrong and leads me to repentance, which I accept and practice more easily than ever before.

- I have learned the value of forgiveness.

Hope this helps.

Blessings.

[Guest NewPilgrim]

ROMANS 7:

15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.

16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good.

17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

18For I know that nothing good dwells in me , that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.

22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin

Ask him if Paul was not saved at this point and what business he had instructing the church if he wasn't

Then ask him to contradict what paul said THAT HE HIMSELF DOES EVIL (v19)

[elkieDannsa' Air An Drochaid]

Pray for humility for this man from the Lord.

It is the arrogance and lack of humility before the Lord that satan(the slayer of souls) brought his own fall and then Adam and Eve and now we must remain faithful to the end to Christ.

To upsurp Gods throne and put ourselves on it is just what lack of humility and arrogance does.

May this man recieve councel.

[Smalcald]

Well I cut him a little slack.

I used to lean toward that based on a couple of scriptures which seem to indicate that if you are born again you don't sin. But if you look at all scripture and particularly Romans and then look back at 1 John, it becomes obvious that we are all sinners and will be until we die. However the Spirit inside of us does not sin and cannot sin. At some point in his life he will find this very very comforting, unless he is psychotic or narcissistic, it is pretty obvious that we are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God, it is really self evident if we truly examine ourselves, and then we will need the forgiveness.

[germanJoy]

Hello -

My Bible study seems to be being destroyed because after studying 1 John, one of our members has concluded that those that are born of God, see 1 John 3:9, and other verses in chapter 3, cannot and do not sin, ever. He says that if anyone sins, it shows that they were either never "born of God" or were "born of God" and have now fallen away.

I believe that everyone who is a Christian, who have the "Spirit of Christ," are also "born of God," and that those that are "born of God" can in fact commit sin.

This disagreement has obviously caused a great divide in our little group with him now refusing to meet with us becuase we don't see this "obvious" truth presented in 1 John. If anyone has any scripture or thougths to help me I would apprecitate it.

I have pointer out 1 John 1:8 - 2:1, but he claims that John is using the "rhetorical" "we," and that those verses are referring to people prior to being "born" of God. I have pointed out Peter, and Paul saying that Peter "was to be blamed" as evidence of someone who was "born of God" who sinned, but he claims that it must not have been a sin. I don't know how to solve this problem and convince him that he is deceving himself. Any help?

In the epistle of John, we need to see that John made distinctions between "willful/habitual sinning" and "unwillful/non-habitual sinning". Firstly, 1 John 3:9 speaks about the "abnormal" state of believers who are practicing sin by intentionally or habitually sinning and thus he said no one born of God habitually practices sin. Secondly, 1 John 1:8-10 speaks about the "normal" state of believers sinning (unwillfully, not out of habit but out of negligence, human failures, etc.) which is a common thing to all born of God. John confirms that those who assume otherwise (being perfect and holy, having no sin or not sinning anymore) makes God a liar in verse 10. He further confirms that this state of perfection and holiness "literally" being like JESUS HIMSELF (spotless and blamess being His bride) is ATTAINABLE only at the day of FULL REDEMPTION (when we receive our glorified bodies, when we overcome the sting of death, when the mortal puts on immortality, the perishable puts on the imperishable 1 Cor. 15:52-55) and that is the time when Christ comes to fetch/catch us up.

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. (being perfect, sinless) We know that when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is. 1 John 3:2

You see, we can only "literally" be like Jesus once we see Him face to face. Now our job is to keep ourselves pure because of this blessed hope we are focusing unto that we may not be disqualified as His spotless/blameless Bride when He appears.

And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. verse 3

How do we purify ourselves? by confessing our sins and asking for God's forgiveness...1 John 1:9

Now, if that member believes that he is no longer sinning, how can he purify himself then? Anyone who says he is NOW holy and perfect but commits a sin tomorrow, has already sinned by lying... thus a lie is found in his mouth. Therefore anyone who believes to be NOW holy and perfect is seen to be a sinner with an unrepentant heart (for how can he repent of something he thinks he never committed?), is proud and makes himself even equal to God who ALONE is HOLY AND PERFECT.

Edited May 22, 2006 by germanJoy

[shepherdsgrace]

I hope that you will not allow your group to be too disturbed over this faction. If he will not come back and fellowship with you then do not allow Satan to use that to keep you talking about him or regretting your loss. Simply do what you think is right towards him, whatever that is, and then continue on. Learn as much as you can from the Word. There are many truly great commentaries that can help you with such questions. And always scripture compared to scripture as has been done here is the way to go.

Blessings.....