so whats the deal with heaven then...

[>> Hannah <<]

Hannah, you know as well as I do, that you will get opposing answers to your questions, depending on who answers them, but for what its worth, here is my reply:

by you saying "for what its worth" are you insinuating that your wasting your time and that im not going to take it on board anyway, but you feel you should add your thoughts anyway just incase

can i be 100% certain that im going to heaven? The apostles can answer this questions with far more authority than I have:

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

so i have to believe, is that it!! so i can do as i wish and totally screw up my life, but if i still believe in jesus i can get into heaven.... thats pretty chilled isnt it, or does he have the hope that once a believer you will be taking the commitment also to live your life for him...i believed for a long time before i felt ready to actually give my life to him... but now it seems that believing wasnt too strong...and in fact i havent given my life to him at all...or have i... he knows my heart...hmmm

does a person only get into heaven on good deeds? No. Entry to heaven is a gift (Eph 2:8)

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

No amount of good deeds will lead to your salvation. Good works IN salvation will come as a result of believing in Jesus and having eternal life. They are the fruits of salvation and the evidence of it.

i dont get this bit

does believing in god get you into heaven alone? In principal yes, but because God is just and faithful, he ensures that his work in us is fruitful and complete. That means that when we have submitted completely to him and accepted his sacrifice, he begins a work of sanctification in us that produces works. Rare exceptions are those such as the thief on the cross who do not have time between repentance and death to do good works. It was belief alone which allowed him into Heaven

are we suppose to submit completely straight away when we decide to follow jesus, or is it a gradual process? if so does he not begin a work in us until we ironically are ready or deserve it... the argument still reigns on this one that a person so totally screw around with their life and yet still get into heaven... i know god judges but we still sin when we are believers, so even if a person purposely messes around wih their life, they can still believe, no? and get into heaven?

is getting into heaven circumstancial? I'm not sure what you mean by this, perhpas you have "unrepented sins" in mind thinking about the suicide posts that have upset you so much. The circumstance in which we are allowed into heaven is that we have accepted the sacrifice of Christ, having heard the gospel and believed it.

no thinking about it hunni im not sure now what i meant by it.... erm.... i feel the suicide issue comes into it... i believe gettin into is circumstancial, i guess circumstancial is a dodgy word to use, im trying to say.. you know the whole judging thing, is judgement day just for non christians or will we be judged aswell, if we believe then surely we get into heaven anyway... i truly believe that believing isnt enough to get into heaven...

Edited May 23, 2006 by >> Hannah <<

[Guest NewPilgrim]

by you saying "for what its worth" are you insinuating that your wasting your time and that im not going to take it on board anyway, but you feel you should add your thoughts anyway just incase

I said that knowing full well that there is a good chance someone like butero or cardcaptor will disagree and seek to disrupt your relationship with God further by undermining his authority.

so i have to believe, is that it!! so i can do as i wish and totally screw up my life, but if i still believe in jesus i can get into heaven.... thats pretty chilled isnt it,

The point is that once sealed with the Holy Spirit, which occurs when we believe in Christ for salvation, then he begins a sanctifying work in us. Sure we still sin, some of us even wander astray for a time, but on the wider scale we are nevertheless walking forward and heavenward. You see the bad stuff in your life at age 19, where will you be at age 30 or 40? you can assume you may be the same, but only God knows and he says there will be greater thigs in you as time goes on.

or does he have the hope that once a believer you will be taking the commitment also to live your life for him...i believed for a long time before i felt ready to actually give my life to him... but now it seems that believing wasnt too strong...and in fact i havent given my life to him at all...or have i... he knows my heart...hmmm

Well, theres the crunch. Only you can know for certain what your relationship is with Christ. The scripture says that you shall be known by your fruits. You and I talked about that very recently. Regardless of what darkness you see in yourself, something we all do, others nevertheless see the fuits of your prosperity in Christ.

does a person only get into heaven on good deeds? No. Entry to heaven is a gift (Eph 2:8)

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

No amount of good deeds will lead to your salvation. Good works IN salvation will come as a result of believing in Jesus and having eternal life. They are the fruits of salvation and the evidence of it.

i dont get this bit

Basically, no - you cannot get to heaven on good deeds.

are we suppose to submit completely straight away when we decide to follow jesus, or is it a gradual process? if so does he not begin a work in us until we ironically are ready or deserve it... the argument still reigns on this one that a person so totally screw around with their life and yet still get into heaven... i know god judges but we still sin when we are believers, so even if a person purposely messes around wih their life, they can still believe, no? and get into heaven?

Following Jesus is a complete submission. Unless you fully realise the depravity of your own life without God then your submission is still "on your terms" its more of a co-allition than a purchase by blood. The sacrifice of Jesus is what the legal profession would term "a non-refundable deposit" That mean you have to be willing to give EVERYTHING you have to God, anything less is not acceptable. I mean this in terms of our attitude, not material things. There is nothing that we can offer God, but the attitude in which we offer the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins has to be one of total submission. We sin because we still have free will under his sovereignty but our sonship within the kingdom is non-negotiable. You are BOUGHT with the blood of Christ, what you choose to do while in bondage to him is still your choice, but your bonds cannot be broken, wherever you go on your journey, you take your saviour with you.

is judgement day just for non christians or will we be judged aswell, if we believe then surely we get into heaven anyway... i truly believe that believing isnt enough to get into heaven...

Paul says that we will all stand in judgement before God. If you think about it; for God, being eternal, the outcome for each of us is a foregone conclusion but nevertheless he demands judgement for us all. We ourselves demand a fair trial to prove or disprove our innosence in a court of law. God Judges us so that when the verdict is met it will be seen to be a true and just verdict and we will be without excuse. This applies for both condemnation and eternal life with God. The main aspect of the judgement of christians will be a testing of our works, any which are deemed to be righteous before God will be rewarded. My own feeling about righteous works is things we do solely for the glory of God and the benefit of others within his will without any thought of ourself. We will all be judged, but the scripture tells us that if we have salvation in Christ, which comes through belief in him through faith given by God, then our judgement will lead us to a place in heaven.

[>> Hannah <<]

just a thought from what i said earlier about faith... plus i had a massive row with someone in chat about it...

if god deals out how much faith people have... why would he give someone hardly any...

are they meant to have a rough life....

surely the more faith you have the better a life your going to have????

[>> Hannah <<]

I said that knowing full well that there is a good chance someone like butero or cardcaptor will disagree and seek to disrupt your relationship with God further by undermining his authority.

well they havent as of yet have they... n butero has been very active recently.... also dont you think sometimes people make out god is nicer than he actually is... he has done some pretty harsh things in the bible.. what about the kids insulting the guy with the bald head and then god sent bears to mall them..." just a story someone told me dunno if its true...

You see the bad stuff in your life at age 19, where will you be at age 30 or 40? you can assume you may be the same, but only God knows and he says there will be greater thigs in you as time goes on.

i havent a clue how i feel at the age of 30 or 40? all i can see is that one minute im convinced im saved and the next i struggle to even get my head round there being!!!

Well, theres the crunch. Only you can know for certain what your relationship is with Christ. The scripture says that you shall be known by your fruits. You and I talked about that very recently. Regardless of what darkness you see in yourself, something we all do, others nevertheless see the fuits of your prosperity in Christ.

did we? if your on about what other people know of me, that annoys me cos i know that i only see surface of other peoples lives, and just like they dont know the sins of my life i dont know the sins of theirs...

i do hate people telling me im a fab person tho, because if they knew they wouldnt think it.... but it doesnt matter what other people think about me, it mattters what god thinks of me...

does a person only get into heaven on good deeds? No. Entry to heaven is a gift (Eph 2:8)

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

No amount of good deeds will lead to your salvation. Good works IN salvation will come as a result of believing in Jesus and having eternal life. They are the fruits of salvation and the evidence of it.

i dont get this bit

Basically, no - you cannot get to heaven on good deeds.

ok, so we get into heaven by believeing??? end off full stop?? cos we will be judged but get in anyway apparently.... wat a waste of gods time...

you have to be willing to give EVERYTHING you have to God, anything less is not acceptable. I mean this in terms of our attitude, not material things. There is nothing that we can offer God, but the attitude in which we offer the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins has to be one of total submission. We sin because we still have free will under his sovereignty but our sonship within the kingdom is non-negotiable. You are BOUGHT with the blood of Christ, what you choose to do while in bondage to him is still your choice, but your bonds cannot be broken, wherever you go on your journey, you take your saviour with you.

how can you give everything when you sin?? daily, hourly!!! surely if you give everything, you shouldnt be able to sin... how perfect would that be? free will sucks

[Smalcald]

Hi Hannah,

Maybe you are over thinking this whole thing a little?

What I mean is that we are all sinners, no one is righteous in the eyes of God, so we cling to a Savior who makes us righteous just because He loves us individually. But here is the thing we must love Him, that is faith to love Christ and to recognize that He is our Lord. But if you love someone and that someone is also our Lord and Savior, we would try to listen to what they say to us, to try to live, as they want us to. Thus if someone has true faith they WILL try to live like Christ to conform themselves to how Christ lived and how He wanted us to live. We will fail at that because we are sinners at heart, but we will try we will ask for forgiveness at each failure and move forward because we want to follow Christ, that is faith. That life is described pretty clearly in the New Testament; our whole life is a struggle between flesh and our Spirit. If someone does not have true faith, they will not really want in their hearts to follow Christ, they may fake it for a while, they may do good deeds for praise from others, but it will not be from their heart, and the heart is what Christ views, not the outside.

Faith does grow; faith does get stronger or at least can get stronger the longer we live in the grace of Christ trusting only Him. Our life however may go well or it may go very badly, either way we have the promise of Christ in eternity, which is far far more valuable than anything this world has to offer, is. Consider the followers of Christ in the New Testament. Did they have great success in the world? Well a good portion of the Apostles lived in poverty working with their own hands and ended up being murdered. Christ Himself was very unsuccessful in the world. He only had several dozen possibly several hundred followers at His death, and His ministry was cut short by crucifixion, He was mocked and tortured. He had no money nor any family life that we know of, yet He is our Lord and creator of the entire earth. What was important to Him was not the trifling things of this earth, but what was important was His mission here, which was to redeem us individually, which is an awesome thing and an inspiring thing. I keep that in mind when I worry over my failures or when things are going horribly for me, which they do from time to time.

Peace.

[Guest NewPilgrim]

if god deals out how much faith people have... why would he give someone hardly any...

And here is the very perception that Jesus confronted in the Apostles. Whatever you may face in life, you have what you need to endure it, you can spend hours or even days complaining about how little faith you have, but Jesus says even if you had faith like a mustard seed you could move a mountain. He is saying...it doesnt matter, you can whine all you like about how little faith you have or how weak your faith is, the simple fact is that your faith is ample to see you through your life. The problem lies in letting go of the things of the flesh in order to apply our faith. In orther words, not just whinging to God that life is tuff and he should do something about it, then waiting for him to take action. Your attitude in faithful prayer should be "your will be done, not mine" like Jesus at gethsemane. Only in this faithful mindset are we able to overcome obstacles in the power of Christ. "I'll handle it myself till God butts in" does not cut it, you need to trust him from the very moment of prayer.

people make out god is nicer than he actually is... he has done some pretty harsh things in the bible.. what about the kids insulting the guy with the bald head and then god sent bears to mall them..." just a story someone told me dunno if its true...

2Kings 2:23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, "Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!"

24 So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

25 Then he went from there to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria.

It is indeed quite true. I think the lesson teaches us that making a mockery of God and his anointed ones is a very serious business. Although the young ones were harmed they were not killed, suggesting that a harsh chastisement is not beyond even our young ones, much as we love them. In honesty how likely is it that not a single one of those 42 would not be killed by 2 bears? very slim indeed, which shows the grace of God as much as his discipline, that he didnt allow even one to be killed.

i do hate people telling me im a fab person tho, because if they knew they wouldnt think it.... but it doesnt matter what other people think about me, it mattters what god thinks of me...

absolutely, I'm glad Romans 7 has sunk in. Whatever u may feel about yourself, if God works in and through you there are fruits and you recognise yourself that whatever might go on in ur head, whatever might be unseen, others do see and recognise your witness for Christ.

ok, so we get into heaven by believeing??? end off full stop?? cos we will be judged but get in anyway apparently.... wat a waste of gods time...

Saving souls is what God is about. He died and suffered to prove the point. If its good enough for him...it should certainly be good enough for you

In the case of the believing, the judgement will result in the alloting of reward, in the case of the believing it will be to leave them without excuse for condemnation and to show that justice is indeed served. Remember, eternity with God was a free gift to begin with, we just went ahead and messed it up. Al we had to do was "not eat one fruit" and what did we do?...

how can you give everything when you sin?? daily, hourly!!! surely if you give everything, you shouldnt be able to sin... how perfect would that be? free will sucks

The point I perhaps failed in putting across is the attitude we have towards God and towards salvation. We all fall short, sure, but the driving force in our live, through our love for God is the struggle not to sin and to repent of it when we do. Giving everything in terms of belief to salvation is coming to him with that very attitude of "everything I am is yours, take it" what isnt acceptable before God in belief is "I'll probably stick with you, as long as its on my terms"

Without free will, we wouldnt recognise love...tell me that sucks........

[Abigailwc]

just a thought from what i said earlier about faith... plus i had a massive row with someone in chat about it...

if god deals out how much faith people have... why would he give someone hardly any...

are they meant to have a rough life....

surely the more faith you have the better a life your going to have????

God knows people's heart. God gives us faith and it is up to us to live by it. The more we live by faith the easier it will be for us to trust Him with our life.

[Guest jckduboise]

just a thought from what i said earlier about faith... plus i had a massive row with someone in chat about it...

if god deals out how much faith people have... why would he give someone hardly any...

are they meant to have a rough life....

surely the more faith you have the better a life your going to have????

I am not sure that God deals out the amount of faith a person has. I do believe that a seed of faith is planted and with perserverence during the good and the bad our faith grows..because it is watered and fed.

and yes the more faith we have the better our life is. Maybe not by outward appearances but most certainly where it matters most. Our hearts, minds and soul/spirit. Life around us Hannah is going to happen. We cannot control it. But we can stay in faith and live by the principles of our Father, it is possible no matter what is happening. Being able to trust in Him even during the hard times takes a lot of work but the benefits are GREAT. In fact trusting the Lord during those hard times makes the good times even better.