SIN

[Ovedya]

I prefer to think of it simpler terms. A father does not disown his son for doing something wrong.

This is not a "true" statement. Yes......a father does, just maybe not yours. Can a son lose an inheritance?

In His Love,

Suzanne

At which point does a son stop being a son?

[Guest dove2]

How does ongoing sin factor into the salvation equation?

Romans 8:1 "There if therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This to me implies that there is a condemnation to those who are in sin. This is talking to saved people not the unsaved. All they have to do is ask forgiveness and our Father will forgive them.

Can a professed Christian be saved AND involved in ongoing sin?

A person can always be drawn back by the Holy Spirit and there is only one unforgiveable sin and that is blasphemey of the Holy Spirit.

But what is blasphemey of the Holy Spirit. Is it denying the Holy Spirit's urging a person to come out of sin? Is it when a person refuses to listen and goes deeper and deeper and even deeper into sin denying and grieving the Holy Spirit?

What does this verse mean in relationship to these question seeing as how these people had to be saved at one time?

Hebrews 6: 4-8

4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessings from God:

8. But them which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

[sagz4Christ]

I will give you a personal insight. It is what is happening in my family right now. I have 3 brothers. Two are living with my parents and myself right now. One is a Senior in Hight School, and the other is about to turn 20. It is this one I will call.....Steven that I will be talking about. Mind you, this is personal and still very fresh in my mind, but it helps illustrate (in fleshly terms) what God-man is talking about.

Steven is not a professing Christian. The rest of my family (immediate) is. As a point of fact, Steven sees himself as an antiChrist. Not THE antiChrist, but one like him. I do not know how he came to this conclusion....it might stem from the fact that he suffers from severe ADHD. It could also be that he got into drugs for awhile. I do know that whatever it is, it has caused him to feel alienated from the family group. My first question is was he really alienated? Or is it just in his head? If he comes back and starts hanging out with us, or if he even comes up and asks for forgiveness he will see that he is forgiven...and rightly so, but more importantly he will understand that we never stopped loving him. We never even tried to disown him. It was all in his head.

Currently, he is under a sort of "House arrest" imposed by our father for some things that stacked up heavily against him. 1, he was caught aiding a friend in a theft of a Nintendo GameBoy game. The prosecutor allowed a way out of going to trial and both teenagers took it. It amounts to a type of probation for a period of time. 2, our father found out while researching this case for Steven, that Steven got a ticket for wreckless driving. 3, he was caught renting vulgar movies and bringing them into our house. (Steven left one of these movies under the couch and was found during a routine search for the remote control! ( :blush: yes, we have a few of those things!)

This caused my father no end of grief. So much so he called me at my fiancee's house and asked that I come home so he could talk to me about it. He wanted ME (his son) to give advice on how to handle his other son (my brother). He eventually "grounded" Steven and is currently only allowing him to drive to work and come straight home. He also gave Steven two final steps...the next time he gets into serious trouble, he will lose driving privialges and will be driven to and from work. After that, he is on his own.

In all this, the love my father has for my brother is evedent. Steven's actions are deserving of punishment, and rightly so. He is not living by my father's rules. Does this mean that my father loves Steven less? Does it mean that he is considering disowning him? "MAY IT NEVER BE!" He is simply trying to show Steven the utter failure of his "sin". The final step...being kicked out of the house does not even reveal a hatred on my fathers behalf. Steven is STILL my father's son. He is STILL going to share in the inheretance, though admittedly, it may be less than it should! All that is required of Steven to be restored fully to my father is asking forgivness. Truth be known, my father still lets him go visit his girlfriend every now and again. You see the softness with which my father is trying to show his mercy and love with? The rule is drive to work, drive home. But yet, because of his love for Steven, he allows him to visit his girlfriend and friends once in awhile.

Still a son...still has an inheritance...

Is there a parallel? You bet.

As to your question:

Can a professing Christian be saved AND involved in ongoing sin?

This is a loaded question and almost seems to be begging contradiction. I am positive you didn't mean it this way, so I am going to ask you to clarify a few things for me, ok?

Is this ongoing sin wilfull? Is it something the Christian is in bondage to?

If it is a wilfull sin, and the person shows no remorse about it, then I would question if they are TRULY saved, or if they are just giving "lip service" to Christ as it were. If that is the case, then they can't be saved and therefore they are able to continue in sin without feeling guilty.

If this sin is something that has a bondage over the Christian, and they are trying desperately to break free from it, then they are secure and only need to repent, give the sin to Christ and ask Him to break them free from the bondage...it sounds easy unless you are trapped in a sin.

Let us not forget that as regenerated believers, we are no longer slaves to unrighteousness, but slaves to righteousness. We no longer crave the desires of the flesh, for the Holy Spirit not only convicts our spirit, but our spirit concurs with Him that the flesh is evil and it's desires lead to death. How could a TRUE believer sin and think nothing of it? it can't happen!

Does this help clear things up?

Scripture to follow.....

yours in Christ;

~sagz

[sagz4Christ]

Hebrews 6: 4-8

4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessings from God:

8. But them which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

I will attempt an answer that is sure to be challenged:

These verse lay at theart of the warning against apostasy. It applies to a class of people whom it is impossible to restore again to repentance. Apparently these people had once repented (though no mention is made of their faith in Christ). Now it is clearly stated that a renewed repentance is impossible. Who are these people? The answer is given in verses 4 and 5;

4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Verse 4; In examining the great privilages which they enjoyed, it should be noted that all these things could be true of the unsaved. It is never clearly stated that they had been born again. Neither is any mention made of such essentials as saving faith, redemption by His blood or eternal life.

They had once been enlightened. They had heard the gospel of the grace of God. They were not in darkness concerning the way of salvation. Judas Iscariot had been enlightened but he rejected the light.

They tasted the heavenly gift. The Lord Jesus is the heavenly Gift. They had tasted of Him, but had never recieved Him by a definite act of faith. It is possible to taste without eating or drinking. (Jesus with the wine dipped in gall (Matt. 27:34). It is not enough to taste Christ; unless we eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, that is, unless we truly receive Him as Lord and Savior, we have no life in us (John 6:53).

They had become partakers of the Holy Spirit. Before we jump to the conclusion that this necessarily implies conversion, we should remember that the Holy Spirit carries on a preconversion ministry in men's lives. He sanctifies unbelievers (1 Cor. 7:14), putting them in a position of external privilege. He convicts unbelievers of sin, of unrighteousness and of judgment (John 16:8). He leads men to repentance and points them to Christ as their only hope. Men may thus partake of the Holy Spirit's benefits without being indwelt by Him.

Verse 5 They had tasted the good word of God. As they heard the gospel preached, they were strangely moved and drawn to it. They were like the seed that fell on rocky ground; they heard the word and immediately recieved it with joy, but they had no root in themselves. They endured for a while, but when tribulation or persecution arose, they promptly fell away (Matt. 13:20,21).

They had tasted the powers of the age to come. Powers here means "miracles." The age to come is the Millennial Age, the coming era of peace and prosperity when Christ will riegn over the earth for 1,000 years. The miracles which accompanied the preaching of the gospel in the early days of the church (Heb. 2:4) were a foretaste of signs and wonders which will be performed in Christ's kingdom. These people had witnessed these miracles in the first century, in fact, they might have participated in them! Take, for instance, the miracles of the loaves and fishes. After Jesus had fed the five thousand, the people followed Him to the other side of the sea. The Savior realized that, though they had tasted a miracle, they did not really believe in Him. He said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled" (John 6:26).

Verse 6 If they fall away, after enjoying the privilages stated above, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. They have committed the sin of apostasy. They have reached the place where the lights go out on the way to hell.

The enormous guilt of apostates is indicated in the wrods since they crusify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. This signifies a deliberate, a malicious spurning of Christ, not just a careless disregard of Him. It indicates a positive betrayal of Him, a joining of forces against Him and a ridiculing of His Person and work.

Next post....APOSTASY....but it will be a few hours before I can get to it..

(fiancee' just arrived!!!!)................GOTTA GO!!!!!!!

your servant in Christ;

~sagz

[endure4salvation]

Do not be deceived! Sin leads to spiritual death!!!

Ezekiel 3:20

Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. (NIV)

Ezekiel 33:11-20

Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.  Turn!  Turn from your evil ways!  Why will you die, O house of Israel?  Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, 'The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it.  The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness. If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done.  And if I say to the wicked man, 'You will surely die,' but he then turns away from his sin and does what is just and right--if he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live; he will not die.  None of the sins that he has committed will be remembered against him.  He has done what is just and right; he will surely live.  Yet your countrymen say, 'The way of the LORD is not just.'  But it is their way that is not just.  If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it.  And if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so.  Yet, O house of Israel, you say, 'The way of the LORD is not just.' But I will judge each of you according to his own ways. (NIV)

Romans 8:12-13

...we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.  For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. (NIV)

1 John 5:16

If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life.  I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death.  There is a sin that leads to death. (NIV)

Romans 6:16-18

Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? (NIV)

James 1:14-16

...For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.  Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full grown, gives birth to death.  Do not be deceived my dear brothers. (NIV)

All of the UES proponents will openly declare that these verses are talking about a physical death. But as James said, 'Do not be deceived my dear brothers.' They will say that God will destroy the body and bring them to heaven for a glorious homecoming! In fact, the worse they behave, the sooner God will bring them home! See how this actually encourages sinful living in some people? There are some people that will think that because they are struggling with life (depression or abuse from family just to give two examples), that they would benefit by sinning as much as possible because it will cause God to kill them and bring them home! Or even worse, it may actually cause them to murder themselves! I understand that this is not true for the majority, but I have personally experienced deep depression and can say with complete certainty that the mindset of anybody in this state is unstable, at best. Suicide is only a bad day away for anyone in this condition. Desperate times call for desperate measures to someone who has no will or hope.

Some people will say that all the above verses do not mean spiritual death, and then these same people will quote Romans 6:23 where it says, The wages of sin is death (NIV) to a lost person and say that this is talking about spiritual death! How hypocritical!!! I sure wish these people would make up their minds! They always pick and choose which passages deal with physical and spiritual death according to how it can fit their preconceived theology, not because the context of the passage indicates it! They have to do this in order to continue believing in UES, because there are so many verses that contradict their theology. Now let's look at the following passages:

Ezekiel 18:4

For every living soul belongs to Me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to Me.  The soul who sins is the one who will die. (NIV)

Ezekiel 18:20-25

The soul that sins is the one who will die...But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live, he will not die.  None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.  Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.  Do I take pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD.  Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?  But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sins and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live?  None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered.  Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.  Yet you say, "The way of the Lord is not just."  Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust?  Is it not your ways that are unjust? (NIV)

Let us look into the New Testament to see if there is a similar verse to this one.

James 5:19-20

My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, let him know, that he which converted the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and cover a multitude of sins.

[Guest coolwaters]

Is their a discrepancy about sins of a father being visited on a son?

It seems G-d punished children for their fathers sin but Ezek is clear that a soul is responsible for its own sin. Is this evidence of a new convenant?

Leviticus 26:39-40

Those of you who are left will waste away in the lands of their enemies because of their sins; also because of their fathers' sins they will waste away. " 'But if they will confess their sins and the sins of their fathers-their treachery against me and their hostility toward me,

2 Kings 14:6

Yet he did not put the sons of the assassins to death, in accordance with what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses where the LORD commanded: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins."

2 Chronicles 25:4

Yet he did not put their sons to death, but acted in accordance with what is written in the Law, in the Book of Moses, where the LORD commanded: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins."

Psalm 79:8

Do not hold against us the sins of the fathers; may your mercy come quickly to meet us, for we are in desperate need.

Isaiah 14:21

Prepare a place to slaughter his sons for the sins of their forefathers; they are not to rise to inherit the land and cover the earth with their cities

Isaiah 65:7

both your sins and the sins of your fathers," says the LORD . "Because they burned sacrifices on the mountains and defied me on the hills, I will measure into their laps the full payment for their former deeds."

Jeremiah 32:18

You show love to thousands but bring the punishment for the fathers' sins into the laps of their children after them. O great and powerful God, whose name is the LORD Almighty,

Ezekiel 18:4

For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son-both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Ezekiel 18:14

"But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:

Ezekiel 18:20

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

[tsth]

Boy! This is gonna be a hard one to keep reined in.

I have found that in this generation, we very readily accept the Word of God on salvation, but we DO NOT as readily accept and believe what the Word says about sin.

Ok, back to the main question:

How does ongoing sin factor into the salvation equation?

Can a professed Christian be saved AND involved in ongoing sin?

What do you think...........according to the Scriptures?

Well let's go to the Word. What does the Bible say about who will NOT ENTER the Kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

(ok, so here, it is clear that even someone who says to the LORD, "Lord,Lord"........may not enter into heaven. It is contingent upon doing the will of the Father.)

Matthew 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

(hmmm......and then there's righteousness)

Don't get mad at me......I'm just quoting the Word here, and trying to seek out the Truth.

Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,

Matt. 18:3 and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, "Children, how hard it is for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God!

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

1 Cor. 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal. 5:21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

Rev. 22:15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Ok, so do we acknowledge what the Word says thus far?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest Goldman01]

Can a professed Christian be saved AND involved in ongoing sin?

I would have to say no to this question. Either they are living in sin or living for God. It can't be both. You are either a Christian, serving God faithfully, following in the footsteps of Christ, or you are lost. Plain and simple as that.

Romans 6:16, "Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey

[Guest dove2]

endure: What does UES mean?

[endure4salvation]

endure: What does UES mean?

UES = Unconditional Eternal Security

CSTOP = Conditional Security Through Obedience & Perseverance