WWJD?

[CSLewis]

If Gogatha was the twin towers what would Jesus do?

Luke 23:34a "Then said Jesus, 'Father, forgive them: for they know not what they do.'"

[secondeve]

Presumably, if Jesus was a red-blooded American patriot, something similar to what Dubbya did. Which I doubt. Greatly.

[Leonard]

Neither of you can see the clear moral distinction between GIVING UP your OWN LIFE WILLINGLY, and the MURDER of 3,000 who were NOT giving up their own lives willingly? Only a victim of a crime can offer forgiveness on earth for crimes committed against him. I cannot forgive you, for slapping, say Shiloh; (did that hurt, Shiloh?). Indeed, if Shiloh is not capable of responding to the slap, then I have a MORAL OBLIGATION to take up for him, and that includes vengeance for the evil deed.

Let me give you an example. Where I grew up, there was a severely crippled fellow about 8 or 10 years older than me, who rain or shine, always walked, very rapidly despite his spastic disability, for miles around the larger neighborhood. I had seen him doing so since I'm about 10 years old. In any event, when I was about 18, I walked out of the shopping mall to find 11 ruffians bedeviling this poor, tiny, frail fellow. All around stood a bunch of imbiciles--a bunch of moral castrati--who were perhaps petrified into utter inaction by asking themselves "What Would Jesus Do?" I knew EXACTLY what the Lord would do, and I did it. I didn't have time to form a whip of cords, but a right haymaker to the biggest guy's temple, and a swift kick--strategically placed--to another guy sent all of them running. Now THAT'S what Jesus would do!

Yes Jesus told us to forgive if someone does something to us AND ASKED FORGIVENESS OF US. In the case of murder, there is no one left to ask forgiveness of. That is why GOD COMMANDS the death penalty for the murderer.

Come now. Surely you are only pretending to seriously believe the thoughts you have propounded here, aren't you? You cannot be such simple-minded children as all that.........

[CSLewis]

When I kill someone I repent and God forgives me regardless of whether or not anyone else in the world forgives me. The Roman Empire killed many innocent people yet Jesus never asked for the disciples to kill them back. You see Jesus cared more about people than ideas. He cared more about saving others than seeking justice. An eye for an eye was replaced. We are to be like Christ to lay down our lives for others even if they are our enemies even if they are terrorists. See even when Nero threatened to destroy christianity and mothers watched as there babies were lit on fire the early christians prayed and sang hymns and never fought back, how can terrorism work if we are not terrified? How can hatred persist if we love them in return. The Roman Empire came to Christ in part by the tremendous efforts of Christians who refused to conform to the world and hurt others.

[apothanein kerdos]

Neither of you can see the clear moral distinction between GIVING UP your OWN LIFE WILLINGLY, and the MURDER of 3,000 who were NOT giving up their own lives willingly? Only a victim of a crime can offer forgiveness on earth for crimes committed against him. I cannot forgive you, for slapping, say Shiloh; (did that hurt, Shiloh?). Indeed, if Shiloh is not capable of responding to the slap, then I have a MORAL OBLIGATION to take up for him, and that includes vengeance for the evil deed.

Let me give you an example. Where I grew up, there was a severely crippled fellow about 8 or 10 years older than me, who rain or shine, always walked, very rapidly despite his spastic disability, for miles around the larger neighborhood. I had seen him doing so since I'm about 10 years old. In any event, when I was about 18, I walked out of the shopping mall to find 11 ruffians bedeviling this poor, tiny, frail fellow. All around stood a bunch of imbiciles--a bunch of moral castrati--who were perhaps petrified into utter inaction by asking themselves "What Would Jesus Do?" I knew EXACTLY what the Lord would do, and I did it. I didn't have time to form a whip of cords, but a right haymaker to the biggest guy's temple, and a swift kick--strategically placed--to another guy sent all of them running. Now THAT'S what Jesus would do!

Yes Jesus told us to forgive if someone does something to us AND ASKED FORGIVENESS OF US. In the case of murder, there is no one left to ask forgiveness of. That is why GOD COMMANDS the death penalty for the murderer.

Come now. Surely you are only pretending to seriously believe the thoughts you have propounded here, aren't you? You cannot be such simple-minded children as all that.........

The problem is that pacifism is an idea, one that leads to much more evil than it seeks to prevent. Had pacifists had their way in the 40's, then Hitler would have killed millions more. Instead of the 50 million dead by the end of the war, we could be viewing over 100 million dead. Which is the greater evil; stopping a madman via violence, or allowing the madman to murder millions?

Christ also did not teach a peaceful stance. To do so would mean God had changed. In the OT He used war as a form of justice and to eradicate those who has sinned against Him. Unless God changed, this means that God was quite in favor of war. What Christ taught was in our personal lives to seek peace as much as we could. However, when peace could not be obtained, then it was to the sword. Notice that in His various encounters with soldiers, Jesus never once tells them to give up their lives. He does this with other professions that contradict Biblical values, yet He does not do this with the soldier. If Christ was absolutely against violence, why did He not do this? His silence is very condemning of this philosophy.

[nebula]

The Roman Empire killed many innocent people yet Jesus never asked for the disciples to kill them back. You see Jesus cared more about people than ideas. He cared more about saving others than seeking justice. . . .

So, you are saying that the guilty should go unpunished?

Isn't there a Scripture that condemns doing that?

Would you tell city cops to not fight against the drug traffic and gang warfare?

We are to be like Christ to lay down our lives for others even if they are our enemies even if they are terrorists.

Did Jesus ever tell any Roman soldier to quit his job?

Is there any Scripture anywhere that tells the governmental leadership to not protect its citizens?

How about this - if it was your daughter that was kidnapped, raped and then buried alive (like the girl in Florida, Jessica), would you send the man on his way so that he could hurt another child?

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Ah' Yesterday was Memorial Day. I spent a little time listening to the Testimonies of some selfless men and a few ex Presidents talking about Memorial Day on the Radio.

To encapsulate this one older fellow with a small shallow voices message.

It was to this effect. Please do not remember me. Remember the evil that we overcame by the Grace of God. Rememeber that this should never happen again. Remember that we only did what we had to do.

SELFLESS. A laying down of ones self for his fellow man.

Men left farms and family. Jobs and Loved ones in a selfless effort to Liberate mankind from Tyranny.

I then remembered as I was reading this thread. The New Pope of the Catholic Church was recently in Germany and he asked a question at Auschwitz.

Pope Benedict XVI asked God;

"In a place like this, words fail; in the end, there can be only a dread silence, a silence which itself is a heartfelt cry to God: Why, Lord, did you remain silent?"

Why Lord did you remain silent?

I heard a still small voice on the Radio yesterady that answered the question;

Joh

[Ovedya]

Jesus is not a hippie.

[Ovedya]

If Gogatha was the twin towers what would Jesus do?

Luke 23:34a "Then said Jesus, 'Father, forgive them: for they know not what they do.'"

This is a really bad question. Golgotha was the place where Jesus was crucified. It was not a a pair of buildings containing 3,300 people in them, which some religious fanatic flew airplanes into. Are you seriously trying to compare the cross to the ruthless slaughter of thousands of innocent people in the name of a false god?

Come now...

[Kabowd]

When I kill someone I repent and God forgives me regardless of whether or not anyone else in the world forgives me.

How many people have you killed? Forgiveness does not mean the absence of consequences. To accentuate God's forgiveness while denying His justice diminishes His goodness. It's actually an assault on His very nature. The first name of God we see in Scripture (Elohim) connotates His power, authority and justice. Punishment of evil and consequences for sin are attributes of God that cannot be denied or seperated from His other characteristics. Jeremiah 9:24 reminds us that the Lord's kindness and righteousness are linked together with His justice. He delights in justice. If it weren't for God's strong sense of justice, there would be no need for forgiveness.

The Roman Empire killed many innocent people yet Jesus never asked for the disciples to kill them back.

Instead of talking about what Jesus didn't say, let's talk about what Jesus did say:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)

Or when His disciples were headed on a treacherous journey, He advised them to buy a sword if they didn't already have one:

"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:36)

Or when discussing the cost of being His disciple:

"Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?" (Luke 14:31)

Notice He doesn't denounce war, in fact in Matthew 24:6 He states that these are things that must take place. However, if you're fond of discussing what Jesus didn't say, why didn't He forbid His disciples from carrying weapons? We know for a fact that not only did He allow it (ex. Peter in John 18:11), we see above that He encouraged them to be prepared for a fight.

You see Jesus cared more about people than ideas. He cared more about saving others than seeking justice.

If you don't believe Jesus was about seeking justice, then you don't know who Jesus is. His entire identity is bound up in God's inherent desire to right what is wrong, to deliver, to heal, to appease suffering. Read Isaiah 61:1-3. If there is one quick way to anger the Lord, it is in harming the helpless or cheating the poor. We are called to defend the defenseless, to care for the needy (the poor, the orphans, the widows) and comfort those who mourn....all of which Christ did Himself. This is justice at work. When we see innocence violated and evil prevailing, we should be outraged not apathetic. We should move to protect and defend those who need it. The whole idea of "turning the other cheek" was admonition not to take personal vengeance simply because our pride had been wounded. It in no way whatsoever implies that social injustice should be tolerated or overlooked and should never be misapplied in order to condone pacifism.

An eye for an eye was replaced.

Where? How so? The original command of an "eye for an eye" was compensation or a judgment handed down to someone who had injured another person. It was restitution, justice, carried out by the magistrates of that time. However, as with most things, this system became distorted and perverted by those who used it for their own personal vengeance. In Matthew 5 (where Jesus mentions it along with turning the other cheek), He in no way was throwing away the justice that the original command called for. He was correcting their misapplication of the system. They had taken the command "eye for an eye" as liberty to take revenge upon themselves. Injury to one's pride is not grounds for conflict. In fact, in biblical times, slapping someone on the cheek was an insult (similar to us maybe flipping someone off). Thus, in context, Jesus is using this "insult" as an example to show them that loving our enemies and seeking peace should come before ourselves and our own pride. Using these verses to justify inaction in the face of terrorism and/or the slaughtering of innocent people severely misrepresents not only these verses but the very nature of God Himself. Knowing God's extreme hatred of evil (especially against those who are defenseless) I can only assume that He would find the misuse of His own words to justify it as equally repugnant.

We are to be like Christ to lay down our lives for others even if they are our enemies even if they are terrorists.

Congratulations, you've just added to Scripture. Please, show me biblical evidence where we are commanded to allow evil to prosper. I've never read such things. I've read how we are to hate evil and cling to that which is good. I've read over 2,000 verses (and there's more than that) on caring for the poor. I've read about countless heros of faith who fearlessly fought to defend the helpless and violently slaughtered their enemies...at the leading of the Lord. I've read about how we are to administer justice and even about believers who will rise up to bring judgment and condemnation at the Last Judgment (Mattew 12:41-42). But never have I read anything remotely suggesting that we should turn a blind eye or deaf ear to those who are suffering. Every evidence we have about the heart of God shows that He is fiercely protective of those who are weak and that He moves to intervene on their behalf. As people who are called by His name, we should do no less.

"O LORD, God of vengeance, God of vengeance, shine forth! Rise up, O Judge of the earth, Render recompense to the proud. How long shall the wicked, O LORD, How long shall the wicked exult? They pour forth words, they speak arrogantly; All who do wickedness vaunt themselves. They crush Your people, O LORD, And afflict Your heritage. They slay the widow and the stranger And murder the orphans. They have said, "The LORD does not see, Nor does the God of Jacob pay heed." Pay heed, you senseless among the people; And when will you understand, stupid ones? He who planted the ear, does He not hear? He who formed the eye, does He not see? He who chastens the nations, will He not rebuke, Even He who teaches man knowledge? The LORD knows the thoughts of man, That they are a mere breath. Blessed is the man whom You chasten, O LORD, And whom You teach out of Your law; That You may grant him relief from the days of adversity, Until a pit is dug for the wicked. For the LORD will not abandon His people, Nor will He forsake His inheritance. For judgment will again be righteous, And all the upright in heart will follow it." ~ Psa 94:1-15