The Reformers were just men.

[Mark777]

Apothanein Kerdos,

I agree with what you said and this was my original intent for the thread. Thank you for your comments.

Mark

[Mark777]

st. Worm: "Whenever, Mark777 interprets God's Word, that is following the doctrines of man."

Mark777: Only if I have followers. I am commanded to search the Scriptures and understand them for myself. You are so defensive about Luther that you have missed the point altogether.

Luthers quote still stands - whether other men of his time spoke in the same manner does not justify him but convicts the other men of his time. And that was also my point.

Mark

[st. Worm]

Mark, I don't have time to repost every single thread you posted about not wanting to discuss the OSAS issue except through biblical verses but below is an example of several posts you made.

from Mark777

"I just wanted to express my total amazement concerning the silence of my request for a biblical explanation. Is there something wrong with Scripture that it cannot be discussed directly but has to be filtered through men who lived centuries ago and died?"

I took this and your quotes like it to mean there was no value for you in learning from church fathers. You even threatened to take your Bible and run home if we did not give in to your demand that we debate on your limited terms.

sw

[Mark777]

st. Worm : from Mark777

"I just wanted to express my total amazement concerning the silence of my request for a biblical explanation. Is there something wrong with Scripture that it cannot be discussed directly but has to be filtered through men who lived centuries ago and died?"

I took this and your quotes like it to mean there was no value for you in learning from church fathers. You even threatened to take your Bible and run home if we did not give in to your demand that we debate on your limited terms."

---------------

Mark777: I laughed so much at this. You post a quote from me saying that I prefer Scriptural validation instead of theology and say that you took it to mean that I see no value in the church father's works? Very big jump there. It sounds like you wanted to jump there - it is always easier to deal with false straw men than what was really said. And very loving of you in way of attitude. I did not ask for a debate - especially one on my terms - all I wanted was to hear an argument from someone that dealt with the passages in Scripture that I was pointing out. I'm sorry, but your theory that God contradicts himself was not very satisfying.

I did go and become a part of another board where people are obliging me. This thread was a logical extention of where the OSAS thread ended.

Eric,

I am trying to stay civil. I see why the other thread you mentioned went wayward.

Mark

[st. Worm]

mark777 quote:

I'm sorry, but your theory that God contradicts himself was not very satisfying.

SW:

Show me where anyone said that.

[Mark777]

Have you not said that you realize that Jesus said he will lose nothing but at the same time one can lose their salvation by rejection Christ? that is a contradiction. Either God will lose nothing or He will lose something. But since He has said that we will not - if He does - He is a liar or mistaken.

Mark

Edited June 7, 2006 by Mark777

[st. Worm]

mark777 quote:

Have you not said that you realize that Jesus said he will lose nothing but at the same time one can lose their salvation by rejection Christ?

SW:

No. I merely recited God's Word that says we are secure in Christ and God's Word that warns us against falling away. I don't worry about reconciling the two with human reason. That is YOUR method. That is why you have to dismiss all of the Scriptures that warn us.

[Mark777]

I'm not interested in repeating all this again with YOU. I have dealt with everything you have brought up on the OSAS thread and others can judge the content. You have shown to me that you dishonestly quote others and apply meaning that the writer doesn't intend - just to win an argument. I think your aim was to hyjack this thread by making wild accusations and misquoting me. I do not believe God wishes me to continue with you under these conditions. Feel free to do so if you wish.

Mark

[Guest jckduboise]

I did not want to bog down the OSAS thread with this subject but thought it important to pursue. The Reformers were men with their own problems and sin just like the rest of us. Men like Martin Luther did great things and managed to free himself of Roman Catholic paganism - to a large degree. He did great but he was far from perfect and rest assured that imperfection was present in everything he did - he was just a man. I want to show that the Scripture is only on par with itself. Man-made confessions and systems of theology are tainted with the authors sin. I am including a small quote from one of the last things Luther wrote and you will see what I mean.

From: On Jews and Their Lies. By Martin Luther.

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

In Deuteronomy 13:12 Moses writes that any city that is given to idolatry shall be totally destroyed by fire, and nothing of it shall be preserved. If he were alive today, he would be the first to set fire to the synagogues and houses of the Jews. For in Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 he commanded very explicitly that nothing is to be added to or subtracted from his law. And Samuel says in I Samuel 15:23 that disobedience to God is idolatry. Now the Jews' doctrine at present is nothing but the additions of the rabbis and the idolatry of disobedience, so that Moses has become entirely unknown among them (as we said before), just as the Bible became unknown under the papacy in our day. So also, for Moses' sake, their schools cannot be tolerated; they defame him just as much as they do us. It is not necessary that they have their own free churches for such idolatry.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17:10) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16:18, "You are Peter," etc., inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let them stay at home. I have heard it said that a rich Jew is now traveling across the country with twelve horses his ambition is to become a Kokhba devouring princes, lords, lands, and people with his usury, so that the great lords view it with jealous eyes. If you great lords and princes will not forbid such usurers the highway legally, some day a troop may gather against them, having learned from this booklet the true nature of the Jews and how one should deal with them and not protect their activities. For you, too, must not and cannot protect them unless you wish to become participants in an their abominations in the sight of God. Consider carefully what good could come from this, and prevent it.

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us an they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen. 3 [:19]). For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting., and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., if they had to serve and work for us -- for it is reasonable to assume that such noble lords of the world and venomous, bitter worms are not accustomed to working and would be very reluctant to humble themselves so deeply before the accursed Goyim -- then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., compute with them how much their usury has extorted from us, divide, divide this amicably, but then eject them forever from the country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!

In brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule: if my counsel does not please you, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews ... Do not grant them protection, safe-conduct, or communion with us ... so it is not necessary to burden ourselves also with these alien, shameful vices of the Jews ...

----------------------------------------

Luther, like Catholicism at the time - was Anti-semitic. He believed them to be Christ-killers. The violence that he wished upon them was a very Catholic thing. Luther did escape much of his Catholic indoctrination but not all......... We shouldn't be of the cult of Luther, or the cult of anyone but Christ Jesus and His word. We can deal with it directly in the same manner that anyone else has. We must learn and pursue the truth and God will guide His elect.

Mark

To me this man Luther sounds like the Anti-Christ himself. Woe to those who are against God's chosen. Those who come up against them will suffer the wrath of God.

I am amazed that anyone would follow such teachings and swear that the ways of Luther were holy, righteous or even Godly.

[Mark777]

Jackie,

That is the way of all men. We have to overcome all that the world puts inside of us but of course we never succeed in doing it completely before death. Martin Luther did do wonders for us - but he didn't succeed in conquering somethings in his life. We are all like that. That is why the standard for belief and behavior is Christ. Our perfect work on Spiritual matters is the Bible.

God forgives even Bigotry.

Mark

Edited June 7, 2006 by Mark777