Why a Trinity?

[Mark777]

Hi,

I was asked to post this on the Luke 14:26 thread - post #55. It is an explanation of the trinity that I came up with for a dear little Jehovah's Witness man. Even though infinity cannot be experienced, I believe God has given us a good explanation in nature of the trinity. Here is my example from that thread. I hope it helps.

-----------------------------

My JW gave me a pamphlet about the trinity. I read in it that they claimed the trinity was nonsense and illogical - that it wasn

[Smalcald]

Fiosh had a great explanation I think, thanks. Lewis also added to what you said a little, by adding that the Trinity is the perfect expression of love, which is what of course God is.

We are asking complex questions, I think we should expect complex answers.

But if our faith is predicated ONLY on human logic, we will never be able to accept that Christ rose physically from the dead, which is logically impossible from a human point of view. What we know about human anatomy and physiology would rule this out. Paul said, this would be a stumbling block for those who think that they are wise. Paul also said if Christ did not rise than our faith is useless and dead, if that is the case we have no reason for hope. So our very faith itself is predicated on something that is a mystery and is illogical to the human brain. Thank God for that, human logic has not always served us well, and is not an altar we necessarily need to worship on. No one is saved by their logic; the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in our bodies and the hearing of the Gospel, which brings us to faith, save us. Logic serves us, and should not be shunned at all, but we cannot base our faith on our own human logic.

[Mark777]

Smalcald,

And at the same time God is communicating certain things to us I think He gives the ability to understand - for instance - eternal things by limited examples in our reality.

Mark

[Smalcald]

Smalcald,

And at the same time God is communicating certain things to us I think He gives the ability to understand - for instance - eternal things by limited examples in our reality.

Mark

I totally agree Mark.

What is fascinating to me is how logic works for believers. To me, the resurrection IS logical, it shows the defeat of death, and it shows that final victory, it was prophesized and witnessed, and makes sense. But this would not be logical to someone who had no faith at all; do you see what I mean? It is a spiritual logic (totally unbiblical term , but I think may serve our understanding.

[Leonard]

In the Eastern world, they are not as enamored as we are in the West of pinning down precise definitions for everything. However due to our Greek influenced thinking in the West, WE CANNOT ABIDE CONTRADICTIONS. We believe that precise logic and rationality are THE WAY to approach the universe. True it works very well for the gross but efficient machinery of science and engineering, but it is simply out of its element in the realm of art say, or classical metaphysics.

The doctrine of the Trinity would never have developed if Christianity had remained a Jewish phenomenon, for not looking at the Bible through Greek lenses, they would never have been frustrated by the conflicting claim of 'Father, Son and Holy Ghost', and the demands of Monotheism. They simply would have believed it, without having the overarching impulse to explain it!

But to proceed with our Greek (and remember too, they are pagan categories we are using as our lenses here!) ways of thinking, we can retrace the steps the Western Church took.

First, they NOTICED THE CONTRADICTION. "One God", and yet 'the Father is God' 'the Son is God' and 'the Holy Ghost is God.' Each is spoken of as possessing the attributes of personhood, to wit: Mind, Will, Emotion, and Activity. So They are Persons, not 'its'. Perhaps they are all the SAME Person; that would solve our problem, for if the One God simply existed at different times in different "modes" of being, then we are still strict monotheists. Indeed, early on (and even today) many Christians opted for the easy way of 'Modalism.' However as they investigated the Scriptures, the Fathers noticed that each of the divine Persons, had particularly described activities carried on at the same time the other divine Person were described as carrying on other activities. In other words, all the 'modes' were active at the same time, which means Modalism is incorrect. So by the standards of Logic and Greek Rationalism, they were forced ineluctably to the conclusion that the ONE God was eternally existant as three divine Persons.

The Creed of Athanasius codified this about as succinctly as it may be, and it is probably still confusing. But the simple fact of human confusion does not disprove the logic of the argumentation.

[Guest linssue55]

I really do think there's only one. So then what was Jesus? See, it's maddening.

God did make it to where we can understand His Trinity from the written word.

Subject: GODHEAD.......doctrine of divine essence of the trinity....

The Godhead is three seperate Persons, with three seperate roles.....BUT they are One in essence ie: the light bulb has three parts, three seperate functions, three seperate personality's, but at the same time the light bulb is ONE in Essence.

God the Father Planned it......

God the Son Created it.......

God the Holy Spirit restored/revealed it........

1. Principles; (Points 1 & 2).....A. God is One in essence; (Jn 10:30).

....B. All the attributes of essence are resident in God, but all may not be manifest at one time.

.......(1) Certain situations in life summon certain charactaristics.

.......(2) Illustration of light; all colors are present in any ray of light, but are only be visible under

...........cetrain conditions of relection and refraction.

2. Examples of Divine essence;

....A. Salvation; Love and Eternal Life are manifest.

....B. Faithfulness; Immutability and Love are manifest.

....C. God's Plan; Omniscience and sovereignty are manifest.

....D. God's Will; sovereignty is manifest.

....E. Judgement; Justice and Righteousness are manifest.

........Omniscience: all knowing.

........Omnipotence: all power.

........Omnipresence: infinite presence.

........Sovereignty: Supreme Being of the Universe.

........Love: infinite capacity for affection, esteem, respect, and pleasure of same.

........Eternal Life: timeless existence without beginning or end.

........Righteousness: intrinsic Good, intergrity, honor, uprightness..

........Justice: absolute fairness, equity, judgement.

........Immutablilty: Unchanging, "not subject to change or variation in quality or nature".

........Veracity: Truth.

3. Omniscience:

....A. God is all-knowing; (1Sam 2:3, Job 26:6, 31:4, 34:21, 37:16, 42:2b; Psa 139:1-6,12,

.......147:4; Jer 16:17, Ezek 11:5, Matt 10:19,30; Heb 4:13).

....B. Infinite in wisdom and understanding; (1Sam 16:7, Psa 44:21, 147:5b; Prov 3:19,

.......5:21, 17:3; Isa 40:13,14; Jer 17:10, 51:15; Nah 1:7, Matt 6:8, Rom 8:27, 11:33; 1Jn 3:20)

....C. Knowing the end from the beginning (foreknowledge); (Isa 41:26, 42:9, 43:9, 46:10;

.......Acts 2:23, 15:8; 1Pet 1:2a)

....D. The Deity of Jesus Christ knew all things, and all men; (Matt 9:4, John 2:24,

........19:28, 21:17)

....E. Application to the believer; (Job 23:10, Matt 6:31,32; Jn 13:7, Rom 8:28, Col 1:10,

.......Jas 1:5, 3:17)

4. Omnipresence:

....A. God is ever-present, limited by neither time nor space, immanent and transcendent;

.......(Jer 23:24, Acts 17:27)

....B. The heavens cannot contain Him; (1Kings 8:27, Acts 17:24b)

....C. Heaven is His throne, the Earth His footstool; (Deut 4:39, Isa 66:1b)

....D. Man cannot escape the presence of God; (Job 34:21,22; Psa 139:7-10, Prov 15:3)

....E. Application to the believer, promise of the comfort of His presence; (Gen 28:15,

........Ex 33:14, Josh 1:9, Psa 121:3,4; Matt 18:20, 28:20b; 1Cor 3:16, Heb 13:5)

5. Omnipotence:....A. God is all-powerful, with unlimited ability, within the scope of His own charactar;

........(Gen 17:1,18:14; Job 26:7, 42:2; Psa 24:8, 93:1b, 147:5a; Isa 40:26, 50:2; Jer 27:5,

.........32:27; Matt 19:26, Mark 14:36a, Luke 1:37, Rev 4:8)

....B. Limitless in authority; (Psa 33:9, Rom 13:1, Heb 1:3, Rev 19:6)

....C. Manifestation of His power; (2Chr 16:9, 25:8; Psa 74:13)

....D. Power of The Son; (Matt 9:6, 28:18; Jn 10:18, 17:2,3)

....E. Application to the believer; (1Sam 17:47, Psa 27:1, Isa 26:4, 40:29; Jer 33:3, Acts 1:8,

........2Cor 9:8, Eph 1:19, 3:20; 2Tim 1:12, 1Pet 1:5)

6. Sovereignty....A. God is The Supreme Being of the Universe;

........(Gen 17:1,18:14; Job 26:7, 42:2; Psa 24:8, 93:1b, 147:5a; Isa 40:26, 50:2; Jer 27:5,

.........32:27; Matt 19:26, Mark 14:36a, Luke 1:37, Rev 4:8)

....B. King of Heaven and earth; (Psa 33:9, Rom 13:1, Heb 1:3, Rev 19:6)

....C. Eternal, infinite and self determining; (2Chr 16:9, 25:8; Psa 74:13)

....D. Power of The Son; (Matt 9:6, 28:18; Jn 10:18, 17:2,3)

....E. Expression of Divine volition resulting in a plan for humanity; (1Sam 17:47, Psa 27:1,

.......Isa 26:4, 40:29; Jer 33:3, Acts 1:8, 2Cor 9:8, Eph 1:19, 3:20; 2Tim 1:12, 1Pet 1:5)

7. Love:....A. God is eternal, unchangeable Love

........(Gen 17:1,18:14; Job 26:7, 42:2; Psa 24:8, 93:1b, 147:5a; Isa 40:26, 50:2; Jer 27:5,

.........32:27; Matt 19:26, Mark 14:36a, Luke 1:37, Rev 4:8)

....B. The infinite, boundless Love compelled Him to reach out to those He Loves;

....C. In setting forth saving grace, His Love was three fold;

.......(1) The Father's Love; (Jn 3:16, 1Jn 4:9)

.......(2) The Son's Love; (1Jn 3:16a)

.......(3) The Holy Spirit's Love; (Jn 16:8-11, 1Cor 2:9-11).....D. Application to unbeliever;

.......(1) God's Righteousness cannot fellowship with sin, therefore, His Justice must demand

...........a penalty for sin. (Rom 6:23a).

.......(2) Therefore a barrier, which is insurmountable by man, who in his fallen state is doomed

...........to eternal separation from God, prevented His Love from reaching him; (Isa 59:2)

.......(3) The "barrier" was removed entoto by the cross;

....E. Application to the believer;.......(1) Those who appropriate the grace of God at salvation are accepted in the Beloved;

...........(Eph 1:6, Rom 8:38,39)

.......(2) The Love of God is produced in the life of the believer filled with The Holy Spirit, and is

...........expressed in Love toward others.

8. Eternal Life:

....A. God is absolute existence, Jehovah; "The Self-Existent One who reveals Himself";

........(Gen 17:1,18:14; Job 26:7, 42:2; Psa 24:8, 93:1b, 147:5a; Isa 40:26, 50:2; Jer 27:5,

.........32:27; Matt 19:26, Mark 14:36a, Luke 1:37, Rev 4:8)

....B. God has no beginning (existed in "eternity past") (Gen 1:1a, Isa 43:13a, Col 1:17)

........and He will exist forever without end. (Deut 32:40, 33:27; Job 36:26, Psa 9:7, 90:2,

........102:27, 135:13; Lam 5:19, Hab 3:6, Jn 1:1-4, 1Tim 1:17, 1Jn 5:11, Rev 1:8, 21:6, 22:13)

....C. Application to unbeliever, rejection of Christ, eternal punishment;

........(Jn 8:24, Matt 25:46a)

....D. Application to the believer, eternal life in Christ; (Jn 3:16, 10:28,29; 1Jn 5:11)

....... Assurance; (Jn 8:51, 14:1-3).

9. Righteousness:....A. God is absolute holiness, uprightness;

........(Gen 17:1,18:14; Job 26:7, 42:2; Psa 24:8, 93:1b, 147:5a; Isa 40:26, 50:2; Jer 27:5,

.........32:27; Matt 19:26, Mark 14:36a, Luke 1:37, Rev 4:8)

....B. Intrinsic good; (Psa 33:9, Rom 13:1, Heb 1:3, Rev 19:6)

....C. Free from sin; (2Cor 5:21, 1Jn 1:5)

....D. Perfect in His charactar and Person; (Deut 32:4b, Psa 7:9, 11:7, 97:6, 111:3, 119:137a;

.........Jer 23:6, Jn 17:25a, Rom 1:17, 10:3; 1Jn 2:29)

....E. Therefore, He is Righteous in all His attitudes and actions; (Deut 32:4a, 2Sam 22:31a,

.........Psa 113:137b, 145:17; Dan 9:14, Rev 19:2)

....F. Application to unbeliever;

........(1) God's concept of Righteousness is absolute, He cannot fellowship with sin, and He

............demands the same of His creatures that abide with Him in Heaven.

........(2) Man's concept of righteousness is relative; (Isa 64:6)

........(3) No man can measure up to the Divine standard of Righteousness by their own works.

............(Tit 3:5, Rom 3:23, Psa 14:3)

........(4) However, the Righteousness of God is available to all who believe. (Rom 3:22)

....G. Application to the believer; (Rom 6:13,18; 1Tim 6:11 1 Jn 1:9)

10. Justice:....A. It is impossinble for God to be unfair. His judgements are perfect and demand

........perfection. Justice administers the penalty which Righteousness demands.

........(Deut 32:4, 2Chr 19:7, Job 37:23, Psa 19:19, 50:6b, 58:11, 89:14; Isa 45:21, Jer 50:7,

........ Rom 3:26, Heb 10:30,31; 12:23; 1Jn 1:9, Rev 15:13)

....B. Justice exemplefied in the plan of redemption:

........(1) The Lord Jesus Christ, through His vicarious, efficatious, spiritual death transfered

........... the guilt of the sinner to Himself, satisfying the perfect Justice of God. (1Pet 2:24,

............ Rom 5:12, 6:23)

........(2) God is now free to pardon and justify the sinner who accepts His offer of saving grace.

........... (Rom 3:21-28, 4:5, 8:1)

........(3) God is equally justified in condemning all who reject salvation (Jn 3:18,36; Jn 5:28-30)

........(4) The basis of their indictment is their works, not sin. (Rev 20:11-15)

....C. Judgement is committed to Him who was judged for us; (Jn 5:22, Heb 9:27,28)

....E. Application to the believer; (1Cor 11:31, 1Jn 4:17)

11. Immutability:....A. God is niether capable of, nor susecptible to change;

........(Psa 102:26,27; Mal 3:6, Heb1:12)

....B. He is absolute stablity; (Isa 40:28, Jas 1:7)

....C. His Word and His works are unchanging; (Psa 119:89, Eccl 3:14, Isa 40:8)

....D. Immutability is the basis for His everlasting faithfulness; (psa 36:5, 88:33, 119:90,

....... Lam 3:23)

..........(1) Faithful to keep His promises. (Num 23:19, Eccl 3:14, Isa 40:8)

..........(2) Faithful to forgive. (1 Jn 1:9)

..........(3) Faithful to keep us saved. (2Tim 2:12,13)

..........(4) Faithful to deliver in pressure. (1 Cor 10:13)

..........(5) Faithful to deliver in suffering. (1Pet 4:19)

..........(6) Faithful to provide a partnership w/Christ. (1Cor 1:9)

..........(7) Faithful to provide in eternity. (1Thes 5:24)

..........(8) Faithful to stabilize the believer. (2Tes 3:3)

....E. The faithfulness of Christ; (Heb 3:1,2; 13:18; Rev 1:5, 19:11)

12. Veracity:....A. God is absolute Truth; (deut 32:4b)

....B. Veracity is manifest in His ways; (Psa 25:10, 86:15; Rev 15:13)

....C. In His works; (Psa 33:4, 111:7,8; Dan 4:37)

....D. In His Word; (2Sam 7:28, 1Kings 17:24, Psa 19:9, 119:142,151; Psa 138:2, Jn 8:45, 17:17,

.......2Cor 6:7, Eph 1:13)

....E. The Veracity of the Godhead;

..........(1) The Father; (Psa 31:5, Isa 65:16, Jer 10:10a, Jn 3:33, 17:3, Rom 3:4)

..........(2) The Son; (Jn 1:14, 15:26, 16:13; 1Jn 5:6)

..........(3) The Holy Spirit; (Jn 14:17, 15:26, 16:13; 1Jn 5:6)....F. Application to believer; (Isa 38:19b, Psa 69:13)

[Guest Car54WhereRU]

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The initial comparison of a cat being a dog and horse etc is stupid. Of course it does not make sense logically. But if I understood everything in the Bible I would know it was written by someone as ignorant as me. The origial poster is trying to figure the Trinity looking through the eye of the flesh. Bible says that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, neither can he know them. The trinity is all throughout the Bible, the first mention being in Gen. 1:26......seeing it is no problem, understanding is a little more difficult.....receiving it by faith comes from the word of God.

[Mark777]

I demand comment on post #11.! (Hey, there isn't a mean looking smilie!) No really, is it clear or confusing? Is my model valid or not?

Smalcald & Leonard,

Intellegence comes in waves to humanity - have you noticed. I believe God controls the wisdom that humanity has. For instance - Greek logic was meant as a tool to explore God's truth. (It wasn't by chance that the New Testament was written in Greek with Greek concepts in it.)

Nothing, including god, is knowable in its ultimate state. We only become familiar with things and how they act. Everything is arbitrary in this sense. There are different ways of comprehending the same thing but logic - I feel - is the foundation of all of them. It might be limited logic in some instances but I cannot see a total absense of it. These comments are coming from an artist - go figure.

OK, WHAT ABOUT MY CUBE!!

Mark

[Guest Myprincessjo]

The Godhead or Trinity, includes three person. God the father, Jesus Christ, the son, creator and redeemer, and the Holy Spiriti.

Mattew 28:19; 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

1 Peter 1:2; Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

2 Corinthians 13:14; 14The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16.

Please pray that the Holy Spririt will lead you into all truth. Jesus said he'll send you a comforter, to teach you and confict you of wrong. Jesus is our high priest in heaven. The father loves us very much, that he send is only son.

Peace and grace be with you

[emeraldgirl]

The initial comparison of a cat being a dog and horse etc is stupid.

How gracious of you!

The origial poster is trying to figure the Trinity looking through the eye of the flesh.

Are you me? How do you know? Is that your way to rationalize anything you can't explain yourself? Look through your exceedingly superior eyes of the spirit and tell me what it means, then.

I guess I'm just wondering now what makes you think that your salvation is dependent upon a certain theology or Biblical concept?

Well, because I know that my beliefs put me in the "heretical" category. Whenever I've signed a Statement of Beliefs, "Christian" is defined by, among other things, believing that the Bible is the infallible, inerrant, complete, inspired Word of God, and believing that God exists in the Triune model - three in one. I'm pretty much loathe to even call myself a Christian anymore, because there's always someone waiting by to tell me that I'm not a "true" Christian or a "real" Christian.

WE CANNOT ABIDE CONTRADICTIONS

Shouldn't the faith be reasonable? I don't want to believe in nonsense, do you? Why should a person not examine contradictions and illogic? Is the faith, then, only for those who avoid questions? Is it only for those who know there's an elephant in the room, but would rather just keep their eyes closed and sit really far into the corner?

But if our faith is predicated ONLY on human logic, we will never be able to accept that Christ rose physically from the dead, which is logically impossible from a human point of view.

Ironically, this is not difficult for me. If Jesus was the Son of God, I would assume that this would be no problem, though it doesn't naturally occur. Besides that, there is a small amount of tangible logic in the story of the Resurrection. Assuming the Gospel account to be true - and who would be proud of this if it was fabrication - the disciples ran like cowards. But a few days later, they were ready to go to their death if necessary for Jesus. So, they either saw the risen Christ, or they thought they did. Or the entire thing is a complete fabrication, cleverly designed to look like the truth.

But the Trinity is another matter. The Bible doesn't say, "This is the essence of the godhead (which, what does that word mean, anyway? ) - We are three, but we are one. One God, three essences." The Bible never says this. Some scriptures can be considered to make the case, as amply pointed out here, but that's when your starting with the Trinity and trying to prove the scripture supports it. (Proof-texting, which I think most doctrine is supported by, though opposing views always say the other one does it, not them. ) If a person was never educated to believe in the trinity, reading the Bible would at best make them say to themselves, "There's a contradiction here. Some places God says he is the only God, and other places Jesus is alluded to as God himself."

Mark777, your description was interesting. At least it's the best one I've heard.