The Way of the Master

[Kabowd]

Since when did witnessing become a cookie cutter method? Are people not individuals? Does not God call them individually?

I think the problem is people wait because they don't know how to share there faith, so is it not better to use "the cookie cutter method" than just to stay in your comfort zone at church one day a week and not reach out to the public.

Bill.

My question would be, how do we determine it's "better"? What is the criteria for measuring that? Don't get me wrong, I believe we should certainly be reaching out to the public ... but what makes you believe it's an either/or thing? And how do we know that the "cookie cutter method" isn't counter-productive? If we know that God alone draws people to Himself, and we know that Christ said if we lift Him up then He will do the drawing, why are we so sure then that evangelizing is dependent on our methods?

[Guest BillR]

Since when did witnessing become a cookie cutter method? Are people not individuals? Does not God call them individually?

I think the problem is people wait because they don't know how to share there faith, so is it not better to use "the cookie cutter method" than just to stay in your comfort zone at church one day a week and not reach out to the public.

Bill.

My question would be, how do we determine it's "better"? What is the criteria for measuring that? Don't get me wrong, I believe we should certainly be reaching out to the public ... but what makes you believe it's an either/or thing? And how do we know that the "cookie cutter method" isn't counter-productive? If we know that God alone draws people to Himself, and we know that Christ said if we lift Him up then He will do the drawing, why are we so sure then that evangelizing is dependent on our methods?

Hi Tess,

I think our main thing is not to determine if it's better but is it Biblical, too many of the evangalism methods deal with this will make your life better or you have a God shaped hole in your heart. Ray and Kirk deal with sin, rightousness and judgment by using the law just like Jesus did. I know God draws them in but we are to fulfill the great commission to bring the Good news to everyone, and we depend on the Holy spirit to do this we can't do this on our own.

Bill

[redeemed098]

Ray Comfort Likened the church today to a fireman who was sitting in his truck listening to music on his newly installed stereo system whilst awaiting instructions from his captain as to how to fight the fire in the building that was burning down around him. This is a very good analogy. A firefighter doesnt need to know what to do when a building is burning down. And Im fairly certain that he would be more interested in saving lives than listening to his new compact disc player.

What Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort are doing is completely biblical principle. Jesus did not walk around telling men that they had a God shaped hole in their hearts that could only be filled by their creator. He had a very plain and simple message. "Unless a man repents, he shall perish." Jesus didn't run around telling them how much God Loved them. He demonstrated Gods Love by going to the cross. Love in action. Sacrifice. The only man who ever lived that ever laid down his own life for people who hated and despised him, so that THEY could be forgiven.

"For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Two things here......

God so loved the world he gave us his only son. Why......????? There was something wrong with the world that meant everyone was going to perish...SIN..!!

Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law.....Do you know what that means.....???? The Laws reveal what sin IS, convicting the heart and piercing the very soul of the man who hears it. "The Law is perfect for converting the soul." "It is the schoolmaster to bring a man to Christ." You cannot be convicted of a crime if you do not know what that crime is. A policeman doesnt come to your door, slap the cuffs on and throw you in jail without telling you WHY...? That would be UNjust.

The Law reveals to a man the hopeless state of his own soul before God and this brings conviction. No man is interested in Gods grace until he is able to get a glimpse of his own sinfulness. How can you possibly stand in awe of Gods amazing grace if you have never had a glimpse of your own sinfulness..?????

You think Gods Laws arent important to HIM.... I'll demonstrate to you very quickly just how important Gods Laws are to HIM... Look to the Cross...!!!

You cannot be saved by simple observation of the Laws, but to deny the power of conviction that brings to a man knowledge of his sins is to deny the Work of the cross and to deny God himself. This conviction can only come through a knowledge of what sin IS.....!!

Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law when you come to HIM...Because that is the purpose of the Law....To LEAD you to HIM. Ray and Kirk refuse to strip the gospel of its power to save. They preach the Whole counsel of God as did Paul and the apostles. The True message of the gospel will cause men to hate you and despise you and want to kill you. The true message of the cross will put you in jail and in positions of warfare where there is no humanly known way possible that YOU can win withOUT God. It will cause you to pray for MORE boldness to preach even though the persecution is growing stronger. You will pray to God offering to be the hands and feet for HIM to work through. You wont pray for the struggle to LESSEN. You will cry out in one accord, "Lord Jesus, Your will be done and not mine." When you stop trying to be the head, and let Jesus be the head, maybe he can use you as his body. He is already the HEAD, he is already the Lord. He just wants his body to be in line with his head. We are his body.

Ray and Kirk dont serve up a mashed potato gospel to lure false converts that will only fall away in the times of testing, simply because they were not told the full counsel of God. Yes God is a God of grace and yes God is a God of Love, but he is also a God of Wrath. He is THE perfect judge and he will pass down perfect justice and he will purge the earth of ALL sin. He is Holy and he cannot deny himself.

The message of the Law is like serving up medicine with fully curative properties. Simply because the cure actually targets the real cause. The real issue is SIN and the real cure is REPENTANCE. Biblical principle is never a "method". It is Gods Word in ACTION. The church of ACTS was Gods Word in action. There is no such thing as a miracle. What we see as a miracle is simply Gods Word being manifested as truth by the outworking of HIS Truth and His Power. This is the way things are meant to be. His blessing if we love and serve him and refuse to bow down to false gods, will be on our food and on our water, there will be no sickness, no illness and there shall be no womb that is barren. I ask you today...!! Is this the state of the world we live in....???? Clearly the answer is NO..!!

Why....???? the C word....COMPROMISE.......ONe foot in the world and the other in the Kingdom. Let the prophets of Baal serve as warning to those who waver.

Ray and Kirk are simply using what Jesus used as the means for reaching a mans heart with the conviction of sin. That is why they call it the "Way of the Master." They are not the first who preached Law. Spurgeon was great advocate of preaching Law. I believe that what Ray and Kirk are doing IS Hells best kept secret. If a man doesnt know what sin IS, how can he repent. ???? Gods word pierces a mans heart.The one who proclaims it is simply the messenger.

To preach Law is completely biblical and allows the WORD to do the work. If the gospel you are sharing with people is making you friends, then I'm sorry to tell you.....It's the wrong gospel. How many friends did Paul have....??? How many friends did the apostles have....???? How many friends did Jesus have...?????

Regards,

Ben.

Edited June 29, 2006 by redeemed098

[juan77]

Thank you, Ben.

People, as I've read through the comments I can see how the Holy Spirit was at work.

PRAISE BE TO GOD!!!

Wherever Jesus went, there He proclaimed the Kingdom. He didn't let one good work go by without letting people know that it is from God.

God will bless that wich is to the advantage of His Kingdom.

Let us not pass judgment on each others attempts, and if we critisize, let us critisize with positive comments.

Some might see Ray & Kirk's way as a 'cookie cutter method' but it works! Lives are being changed. Our family is growing, the bloodline of Christ is expanding!

Sure, their way of evangelizm may have some flaws, but we're human and God loves us as we are, but loves us too much to leave us the way we are.

If what Ray & Kirk are doing seems heartless to you, consult them about it. See if you can help them improve their attempts to save lives for Christ!

I believe we can use any God given method we want - even no method and solely under the influence of the Holy spirit - as long as our hearts are in the right place.

"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

Let us then not tear each other appart, but build each other up, learning from one another, and judging by the Holy Spirit, on how to fullfil what Christ has commanded.

Jesus and John said: "Repent, for the Kingdom is near."

Jesus commanded: "Go and proclaim the Gospel to all creation."

[Keith]

What The Way of the Master is doing right is showing people that they have a need for a Savior. They are presenting the full gospel to people.

Jesus never tried to woo people into the kingdom through benefits or personal gain. Today's churches are full of an incomplete gospel, wooing people into the magical Sinner's Prayer so they can be part of the Born Again Club. Most are not telling people about the price they need to pay by counting the cost, surrendering their lives fully to Him, picking up their cross and following Jesus in your lifestyle. Salvation is a lifestyle, not a belief. That's why our churches are so full of people who proclaim to know Christ but deny Him by their lifestyles.

[EmunahTikvahAHAVA]

Praise G~d for the website and may each one of us lovingly follow the Holy Spirit as He leads. The Harvest is plenty the workers are few.

[rfw]

There are too many CHristians I've known who need the framework of a "method". It is not that they don't have compassion, or even knowledge, they need a plan. THere's nothing wrong with having a plan, plenty of Proverbs speak to that. Without the help of a method, most will not dare to share. The Holy Spirit is able to use the willing and available, and for many, the comfort of training and preparation makes them far more willing, and thus more available to get out there and witness.

That doesn't mean we should limit the Gospel to a presentation: it can't all be contained in one. But if we have a beginning, we have a place to grow from. So while I understand your opinion, I don't agree with it. Having been an EE trainer, and still use the framework, I know its value, and its limitations. Just because I can't use a saw as a hammer doesn't mean I should throw it away if it still does the job it was designed for. I just have to add more tools to my box to handle the different problems that arise.

[Brandli5]

We are to study the word. WE are to go out and tell the Gospel. Just remember that the Lord wants us to be his children and follow his word.

In Word Faith religion, the believer is told to use God, whereas the truth of biblical Christianity is just the opposite, God uses the believer. Word Faith or prosperity theology sees the Holy Spirit as a power to put to use for whatever the believer wills. The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is a Person who enables the believer to do God's will.

Theology and anwers for everyone is not what God wants for his people to go out and wittness about. He wants us to just go and tell his Gospel. The rest is up to the person who finds in there hearts a desire to find out more about the lord.

They can read the bible and get answers on thier own. CHruch, teachings ect. Not the person going out and spreading the good news.

I am posting this because there are a few people on this thread who have posted differnly, and the bible is truth.

No theology will ever fully explain God and His ways. God is infinitely and eternally higher than we are. Therefore any attempt to describe Him will fall short (Romans 11:33-36). Theology is a science, an attempt to present what we can know and understand about God in an organized and understandable manner. Many people try to avoid theology because they believe it is divisive. Properly understood, though, theology is uniting. Theology is organizing the teachings of God's Word in an understandable way. Proper, Biblical theology is a good thing - it is the teachings of God's Word (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

[redeemed098]

There are too many CHristians I've known who need the framework of a "method". It is not that they don't have compassion, or even knowledge, they need a plan. THere's nothing wrong with having a plan, plenty of Proverbs speak to that. Without the help of a method, most will not dare to share. The Holy Spirit is able to use the willing and available, and for many, the comfort of training and preparation makes them far more willing, and thus more available to get out there and witness.

That doesn't mean we should limit the Gospel to a presentation: it can't all be contained in one. But if we have a beginning, we have a place to grow from. So while I understand your opinion, I don't agree with it. Having been an EE trainer, and still use the framework, I know its value, and its limitations. Just because I can't use a saw as a hammer doesn't mean I should throw it away if it still does the job it was designed for. I just have to add more tools to my box to handle the different problems that arise.

What "tools" did Jesus use...? What "tools" did Paul Use....? What "tools" did any of the apostles use.....? ANSWER....None...!! They themselves were the "tools", they themselves were the vessels..... God doesn't need YOUR tools.....He needs you !! To be a Living sacrifice. The only weapons you have at your disposal are not carnal, they are spiritual, for the pulling down of strongholds. If you think that the tools in YOUR Box are handling the circumstances, then I fail to see how it is Christ who is doing the building and the pulling down. It seems that you do not need Christ..You have your own tool box.There is only one message that is going to get people saved and that is the Preaching of Christ and HIM crucified. If you are in the business of trying to make the gospel relevant for today, then I would have to say to you that the only only one who is on the throne in your life is YOU. God is the only one with the power to change circumstances. It is only the presence of God that turns things around.

I for one and very tired of mens plans. Mens methods, and mens ideas. I desire more than anything in this world for man to get OFF the throne and to stop trying to bend God to do OUR will. Paul did not preach with words of human wisdom lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. He spoke with the demonstration of Gods Power so that the people would be left with no doubt as to who was in control here. God will not share his glory with another.

If there is no demonstration of Gods Power in the preaching of the Word, then you can be certain that what you are witnessing is merely vain religion.

Rules and traditions set up and taught by men. Jesus said that it was wrong to seek a miracle or a sign or wonder as the Jews did, and he said that the gentiles seek wisdom...Philosophy, ideology and Intellectual reasoning. These things are all simply vain empty attempts to have proof or evidence. Jesus said that "these signs shall follow those who believe"..........BELIEVE......and the Lord went with them and the word that was preached was confirmed by the signs that followed." Firstly we must BELIEVE......Not seek a sign...Believe......The word that is preached is then confirmed by the signs that follow....." You dont believe because you SAW a sign or wonder. You will see signs and wonders WHEN you believe. Gods Power will be manifested where his presence DWELLS.....You can be absolutely certain that if Gods Word is not being fulfilled in YOUR life or in the life of your church, then it is clear that his presence is NOT there. WHY..???

Read 2 Chronicles 7:13-16

Incidentally,RFW this is NOT directed towards you personally. It is just a passionate cry to the Lord to see HIS Power manifested and mans methods put to death.

God didnt fill us with his HOLY SPIRIT so we could manufacture and manipulate circumstances and methods to save people. He filled us so that we would receive power to be witnesses UNTO HIM. I think its about time we waited on the LOrd to see where HE would have us go and what HE would have us do..."Blessed are those who wait upon the Lord." "Be still and know that I am God." for "the battle is the Lords."

Regards,

Ben.

Edited July 6, 2006 by redeemed098

[EricH]

What The Way of the Master is doing right is showing people that they have a need for a Savior. They are presenting the full gospel to people.

Jesus never tried to woo people into the kingdom through benefits or personal gain. Today's churches are full of an incomplete gospel, wooing people into the magical Sinner's Prayer so they can be part of the Born Again Club. Most are not telling people about the price they need to pay by counting the cost, surrendering their lives fully to Him, picking up their cross and following Jesus in your lifestyle. Salvation is a lifestyle, not a belief. That's why our churches are so full of people who proclaim to know Christ but deny Him by their lifestyles.

Actually Jesus did use "felt needs" as a bridge to their real needs. He demonstrated love through meeting felt needs so that He could bring them to a reality of their real needs. The most effective evangelism takes place in the context of established relationships. It is in those relationships where the integrity and love of the believer can be seen and experienced by the unsaved person, that the best chance for seeing Jesus occurs. They must trust us before they will hear our truth