Why Earth?

[sylvan3]

Shiloh:

All human beings, according to the Bible, sin or have sinned: not one of us is innocent. So it is possible to argue that God punnishes every person on the planet for their sin. However, if this is true, then it must also be the case that, at least to human eyes, God's punnishment is not always in proprtion to the sins of the recipient.

Take, for example, infanticide: the practise of killing unwanted newborns. Having been in the world the shortest amount of time, but being born in sin, if God is both loving and merciful as well as just, their punnishment for what they have been born with should, perhaps, be lesser than death.

Child rape is another problem: some children do terrible things, but if God sees all and knows all, and if he does not prevent the rape and murder of a little girl, can we call him loving at all? It might be argued that God "has a place for her in Heaven," but this still does not seem to justify the need for such a violent, horrific death.

Children die in Africa every day of malnutrition, poverty and disease: these children probably don't know God, and so, upon death, will be sent to Hell. You and others have said that, because acceptance of the redemptive blood of Christ was the method chosen by God for human salvation - and because he cannot go back on his word - all who have not accepted Jesus will go to Hell. This list, by default, includes millions of children, doomed to eternal torment because, through no fault of their own in, I would say, the vast majority of cases, they have not been able to know Christ.

Starving children in Africa, Muslim children who have been raised by misguided parents - or so Christians believe - in the wrong faith, are dying every day there is war in the Middle East as the result of bomb blasts, hunger, suicide bombings and bullets. They will all go to hell. Hindu children living in poverty in Mumbai go to hell. Stilborns to Western mothers, forced late-term abortions in rural China, girl-babies killed in India: every non-Christian child who dies the whole world over goes to Hell, and if this has been true throughout all of history, then one might readily assume that Hell - or parts thereof - is filled with children and babies.

If God has any measure of forethought, then he would have known, when he made acceptance of Christ the stepping-stone to Heaven, that Christianity would not be the most adhered-to religion in the world at any time up to and including 2006; that for almost 2000 years, the majority of the world's population would go to Hell for failing to meet this requirement. He would have known that billions of children would end up in Hell, from having the misfortune to be born in places all over the world which, up until a few hundreds years ago, would have no contact with Christianity whatsoever, or if they had, it would not have been the religion taught to children. If he has any measure of love - of compassion - then how could he sanction this?

1. You are operating from the falacious premise that the above reflects "punishments" for sin. They are the manifestations of sin.

2. You are operating from the false premise that hell is "punishment" for sin. It is not. It the consequence for rejecting God's love. God does "send" people to Hell. God is not vindictive. His justice has been satisfied and He is not holding anything against anybody. Hell is where you go by default. It is not a matter of God saying, "You rejected me, so here is what I am going to do to you."

3. The problem with your approach is that it is really selfish at heart. What the world wants is sin without consequence. The world wants to be able to live as they choose, but not have to suffer the consequences for their choices (unless the consequences are good). They expect that they should be able to sleep with every person they want, and God (if He is loving) should not allow the existance of HIV. They should be allowed to ignore the poor in the world, and God (if He is loving) should just make poverty go away. Man expects that He should be able by whatever moral code He wants, and God (if He is loving) should not allow crime to exist. It is a complete irrational concept. We should be able to live as we want, and not be accountable.

You want to live as you choose and then treat accountability and consequence for any bad decision YOU make, as meaning that God is either not loving or is not omnipotent or something like that. By your definition of "love," God should be your maid who follows you around and cleans up after you every time you make a mess of things.

The world does not want God except when He serves a useful purpose (like ridding the world of all evidence that mankind has screwed everything up). The world wants God out of government, they want God out of shcools, they want God out of public life altogether. They want God to shut-up and go sit in a corner until they need Him, and then they only time they need Him is when they want to complain about why He let this and that happen. God is just a convenient scapegoat. They want God out of their life, and then blame that same absence for their stupid, irresponsible deicisions.

Denying God's existence is just a convenient way of skirting around having to be accountable to Him. It doesn't matter what God does or does not do. It is easy to find fault with Him. The issue here is not a genuine concern about God's morality, it is just a way avoiding the accountability for sin.

Shiloh,

I got as far as #2 and couldn't really concentrate on the rest of what you are saying. #2 is completely incomprehensible. It is total doublespeak. You use tricky definitions to try to skirt issues, yourself. You say that hell is a consequence but not a punishment--this is ludicrous.

Please remember: God is omniscient. God therefore knows who will accept him and who won't prior to their creation. If he then creates that person, knowing that the person would need the "consequence" of hell, he is, in effect, sending them to hell. This, therefore, is actually determined prior to the person being born.

If you try to say that God doesn't create the person, as I believe you have attempted to say previously (my apologies if that is incorrect) that opens up a completely different set of logical complications for you.

[Arialia]

Off topic:

Why would God send us "by default" to a "lake of fire" and torture?

Is that what you would do to your creation, something you supposedly "love" and cherish?

Edited July 13, 2006 by Arialia

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh,

I got as far as #2 and couldn't really concentrate on the rest of what you are saying. #2 is completely incomprehensible. It is total doublespeak. You use tricky definitions to try to skirt issues, yourself. You say that hell is a consequence but not a punishment--this is ludicrous.

Please remember: God is omniscient. God therefore knows who will accept him and who won't prior to their creation. If he then creates that person, knowing that the person would need the "consequence" of hell, he is, in effect, sending them to hell. This, therefore, is actually determined prior to the person being born.

Punishment and consequence are two different concepts. Punishment is a just recompense for a wrong committed. Punishment is the product of judgement against a person, in order to exact justice upon them.

Consequence is merely the built in result of a particular action. If you smoke in bed and fall asleep before putting out the cigarette, and the house catches on fire, that is a consequence.

Hell is not God's Will for anyone, even though they reject Him. Hell is not a product of vindictiveness on God's part. It was not even created for man in the first place. It was created only for satan and his angels.

Hell is the default consequence of rejecting God's love. God does not send you there, in fact God never stops loving anyone. If God did not provide a means of escape, that would be one thing. He has. He offers you salvation, and he offers it for free. All you have to do is accept it. It cost Him His Son, but costs you nothing. Only your pride and your over-estimation of the intellectual value of your rants against His existance stand in your way.

[Arialia]

Punishment and consequence are two different concepts. Punishment is a just recompense for a wrong committed. Punishment is the product of judgement against a person, in order to exact justice upon them.

Consequence is merely the built in result of a particular action. If you smoke in bed and fall asleep before putting out the cigarette, and the house catches on fire, that is a consequence.

Hell is not God's Will for anyone, even though they reject Him. Hell is not a product of vindictiveness on God's part. It was not even created for man in the first place. It was created only for satan and his angels.

Hell is the default consequence of rejecting God's love. God does not send you there, in fact God never stops loving anyone. If God did not provide a means of escape, that would be one thing. He has. He offers you salvation, and he offers it for free. All you have to do is accept it. It cost Him His Son, but costs you nothing. Only your pride and your over-estimation of the intellectual value of your rants against His existance stand in your way.

Consider this: A poor child grows up in an African country. She never has access to God's Word. She dies young. She goes to Hell, as that is the default. Now she has to endure eternal suffering.

[Guest shiloh357]

Off topic:

Why would God send us "by default" to a "lake of fire" and torture?

Is that what you would do to your creation, something you supposedly "love" and cherish?

God does not "send" anyone to hell or heaven. If God had not provided a way for you to avoid it, you could challenge his concept of love. The fact that He loves you enough to warn you about it and point out the way to avoid speaks volumes about His love.

Hell is something you choose by rejecting His love. He offers His love full and free to anyone and everyone. Even the most vilest criminal in the world is not outside the reach of God's love. It is only foolish human pride that keeps men from Jesus when they hear the gospel.

[Arialia]

Off topic:

Why would God send us "by default" to a "lake of fire" and torture?

Is that what you would do to your creation, something you supposedly "love" and cherish?

God does not "send" anyone to hell or heaven. If God had not provided a way for you to avoid it, you could challenge his concept of love. The fact that He loves you enough to warn you about it and point out the way to avoid speaks volumes about His love.

Hell is something you choose by rejecting His love. He offers His love full and free to anyone and everyone. Even the most vilest criminal in the world is not outside the reach of God's love. It is only foolish human pride that keeps men from Jesus when they hear the gospel.

No, you said you go there by default. Default. Meaning if you have no access to God's Word, you go there, no matter how innocent you are.

[SoulGrind]

Off topic:

Why would God send us "by default" to a "lake of fire" and torture?

Is that what you would do to your creation, something you supposedly "love" and cherish?

Because God is fed up with sin.

What happens when you try to bake a cake and somehow, things just go wrong? Burnt edges? Fell a little? Whatever the case... You save what you can and throw the rest away.

You love what you save, but the rest - in the trash it goes. You feel bad about it. It's a crying shame, a waste. But you really have no choice.

I'm probably over-simplifying God's position on this, but it's as close as I can get without putting myself in God's shoes - and we know what happened to the last guy that tried to play God!

Edited July 13, 2006 by SoulGrind

[Guest shiloh357]

Off topic:

Why would God send us "by default" to a "lake of fire" and torture?

Is that what you would do to your creation, something you supposedly "love" and cherish?

God does not "send" anyone to hell or heaven. If God had not provided a way for you to avoid it, you could challenge his concept of love. The fact that He loves you enough to warn you about it and point out the way to avoid speaks volumes about His love.

Hell is something you choose by rejecting His love. He offers His love full and free to anyone and everyone. Even the most vilest criminal in the world is not outside the reach of God's love. It is only foolish human pride that keeps men from Jesus when they hear the gospel.

No, you said you go there by default. Default. Meaning if you have no access to God's Word, you go there, no matter how innocent you are.

Yes that is what I said. However, those who do not have access to God's Word are dealt with by God accordingly. God gives everyone an opportunity. He is just and fair. They may not have access to the Bible in the conventional sense, but God makes Himself known, and is quite capable of reaching everyone. You presume a lot about God and you presume incorrectly I might add.

Yes, if you have access to God's Word and you reject God's Word, then hell is where are still headed. You are born in sin. Hell is where are headed if left to your own. When the gospel is presented to you, and you reject it, you have chosen to remain on that default path. It is both essentially. You can change paths, or you can, in your pride, stay on the path you are headed.

[SoulGrind]

Please remember: God is omniscient. God therefore knows who will accept him and who won't prior to their creation. If he then creates that person, knowing that the person would need the "consequence" of hell, he is, in effect, sending them to hell. This, therefore, is actually determined prior to the person being born.

Ah - but this is where you, Sylvan are in error.

Under your own presuposition, then, and based upon your "viewpoint" towards God, then you are destined for Hell.

However - this is where your argument fizzles out - because now you have been made aware of the "circumstances" (cause and effect) regarding God, Heaven, Hell, Salvation, etc.

Ergo...

You now have a CHOICE.

So if you end up in Hell - it's now by your own volition, not predetermination.

Predetermination presupposes that you have no knowledge of the future outcome and therefore have no option to change that outcome.

But you are now in a position to make such a choice, therefore, no predetermination exists, only pure CHOICE.

And you are held accountable for that choice.

Peace,

[Candi770]

We are created in the image of God(Like our triune God)-Spirit, Soul and Body-we must be born of water (birth)and born of the spirit.

God's angels which are spirit must obey him and have no choice:they can only carry out missions that he sends them on-no more or no less, same with the fallen angel: they chose to follow the devil and now have no choice. This is why people become demon possessed: unfortunately people give these demons access; this gives them reign to use the body they are in to carry out more of the enemies plans.

With a body, spirit and soul we as christians can use God given authority in the heavenly realm where we affect the kingdom of light and darkness; with a spirit only; we can not do this.

Would you not agree that it would be unfair to you to not have a choice. But granted, your and my choice will have consiquences. Don't blame God.

We were given choice.

Adam had a choice-he was given warning-he knew the truth-he wasn't blind to the truth, or unknowledgeable of God-he walked with Him-He knew him and still made a choice-He could have taken His God given authority and told the woman no- God didn't intend it to be it that way. That's crazy to lay it to God's charge.

If per say someone tells their child not to eat something and tells them what would happen if they did it-you know if they decide to do it-they have to suffer the consiquences. Is it the parents fault-No. The parent would be wrong if they didn't warn them (if not warned on purpose)

God is a good God: He gives warning because he Loves us. It's hard to understand this if one has never had true disapline in the family (meaning loving guidance to know right from wrong)

where children are held accountable for their actions and suffer consiquences-so when they go out into the world-they will know that if they steal, kill or destroy-it will bring lasting consequences. Young Christians that have never had loving correction-have a hard time understand the judgement side of God. God corrects us because he loves us. A parent that loves their children will correct their children. Godly parents say what they will do as a consiquence and stand firm in carrying that out. At least thats what my dad did: If he said it, he did it-completely out of Love and I totally know that if God said it he means it and I know that if I go out and do it anyway: I would suffer the consiquence. But Like my father I didn't want to severe my relationship and likewise; I hold my relationship with God the same: I don't want to severe it so I chose to stay in my relationship with Him. Not out of fear of the hammer; but because I love Him.

Yes we are born into a sin nature: but at any time we can choose to be born again-by the spirit. We have that right and we have that choice; we are only doomed by our own actions.

When someone doesn't know the Lord or is against the Lord-they are under the Law and respond more about the judgement of God; but when you know Him as Lord and Savior you

see Him in a more balanced Loving sense.

How are you doing secondeve; I think about you and hope your having a blessed day.

Candi