Faith and salvation, where do they come from?

[EricH]

As I have posted on other topics "Balance"

[st. Worm]

As long as your mindset is in the free will error and a belief that salvation is based on our choice you cannot really grasp just how graceful God is to those who are saved nebula.

Your wording here shows that you keep missing what we have been saying.

None of us have claimed salvation is based on choice.

It's like this. We are born sinners. Therefore we cannot help but sin. Therefore we do not chose to sin. When we sin, then, we are being our natural selves. Therefore, when God punishes us for our sin, He is punishing us for something we have absolutely no control over. Is this what you believe?

Please explain.

It is you who are missing the point nebula Just because you don't have an answer for it don't blame me for not understanding. Our inclination is completely towards sin if we are unbelievers. Why do you even ask the question that we may not responsible for our sins? We choose to commit sin freely but that does not imply we are free to make the choice to believe. The will chooses based on its inclinations. That does not mean it has the liberty to chose whatever it is not inclined to choose, namely Christ.

sw

[st. Worm]

As long as your mindset is in the free will error and a belief that salvation is based on our choice you cannot really grasp just how graceful God is to those who are saved nebula.

Your wording here shows that you keep missing what we have been saying.

None of us have claimed salvation is based on choice.

It's like this. We are born sinners. Therefore we cannot help but sin. Therefore we do not chose to sin. When we sin, then, we are being our natural selves. Therefore, when God punishes us for our sin, He is punishing us for something we have absolutely no control over. Is this what you believe?

Please explain.

"None of us have claimed salvation is based on choice." - nebula quote.

Dear soul, that is exactly what you have been claiming! You have claimed your salvation is based on your decision or choice to "accept" Christ.

sw

[Smalcald]

We cannot chose to call Christ down to us, anymore than Paul could have chosen Christ to come to him on the road, how could Paul have chosen Christ to come to him when he was in the midst of persecuting Christian's? Not only in the midst, but he had NO doubts that what he was doing was not right in God's yes, Paul had no inkling that Christ was anything more than some wayward human prophet. So how could that have been any sort of choice Paul made to convert to belief in Christ? The choice we have is only for the bad. Paul could have covered his ears and run away and kept on running from Christ, but was this choice? Not really. But people do make it, I don't understand why, but they do.

Was it fair of Christ to condemn those to hell who walked away from Him because His teachings were hard to understand, when He was talking about eating His flesh and drinking His ? Was it fair to those guys, I mean it sounds nutty who would blame them for walking away after hearing that? But look at Paul

[st. Worm]

So, when the athiests in the Outer Court claim that if there is a God, He has no right to send them to Hell for their non-belief in Him because God never revealed Himself to them?

Well that's the old strawman argument nebula, but inhabitants of Hell are there because of their sin and only that. In Romans we read that God has revealed himself to everyone. However, sin blocks us from knowing God through the creation and conscience. We can only know God through Jesus and the gospel by God's grace. Obviously many people lived and died in their sins without ever hearing the gospel or learning about Jesus. Does that make God responsible that they perished in their sins? Of course not.

sw

Are you trying to say that people who never hear about Jesus automatically go to Hell? The God I know and love wouldn't let that happen. The Bible says for those who've never heard the gospel, they're judged according to the conscience God has given them. The Bible also says that the Lord is fair. To have people going to Hell just because they never had the oppurtunity to accept Jesus....that's not fair.

Are you saying there is a way to salvation apart from the Gospel? Are you saying if men are not confronted with a "choice" about a Jesus that they reject are given a free pass to Heaven? Paul goes to great pains in his letter to the Romans to write that men are without excuse in their sinfulness and will be judged on the basis of that not what they have been told about Christ.

sw

[nebula]

"None of us have claimed salvation is based on choice." - nebula quote.

Dear soul, that is exactly what you have been claiming! You have claimed your salvation is based on your decision or choice to "accept" Christ.

"Being based" on and "needing" are two different things.

Oy vey!

[st. Worm]

"None of us have claimed salvation is based on choice." - nebula quote.

Dear soul, that is exactly what you have been claiming! You have claimed your salvation is based on your decision or choice to "accept" Christ.

"Being based" on and "needing" are two different things.

Oy vey!

Great. In this instance explain how they are two different things. If our salvation "needs" our acceptance as a positive act by us before it is valid, then how does that differ from being "based on". Thanks!

sw

[nebula]

It's like this. We are born sinners. Therefore we cannot help but sin. Therefore we do not chose to sin. When we sin, then, we are being our natural selves. Therefore, when God punishes us for our sin, He is punishing us for something we have absolutely no control over. Is this what you believe?

Please explain.

It is you who are missing the point nebula Just because you don't have an answer for it don't blame me for not understanding. Our inclination is completely towards sin if we are unbelievers. Why do you even ask the question that we may not responsible for our sins? We choose to commit sin freely but that does not imply we are free to make the choice to believe. The will chooses based on its inclinations. That does not mean it has the liberty to chose whatever it is not inclined to choose, namely Christ.

I was expressing the train of thought the line of thinking presented by you can go.

Of course I don't believe we are not responsible for our sin!

You say that because we are sinners, we cannot say yes to Jesus. But when God's grace is dispensed to us, we are saved unless we say no.

But would you not agree that by not saying no, we have chosen to say yes?

[billie]

Oh, my poor head! Make the room stop spinning!

[nebula]

Great. In this instance explain how they are two different things. If our salvation "needs" our acceptance as a positive act by us before it is valid, then how does that differ from being "based on". Thanks!

Saint -

"Based on" is the foundation.

"Needing" is an additional element.

Salvation is not based on my repenting, but I need to repent in order to be saved (I mean, why would the Scripture say you need to repent in order to be saved if this were not so?)