Faith and salvation, where do they come from?

[st. Worm]

It's like this. We are born sinners. Therefore we cannot help but sin. Therefore we do not chose to sin. When we sin, then, we are being our natural selves. Therefore, when God punishes us for our sin, He is punishing us for something we have absolutely no control over. Is this what you believe?

Please explain.

It is you who are missing the point nebula Just because you don't have an answer for it don't blame me for not understanding. Our inclination is completely towards sin if we are unbelievers. Why do you even ask the question that we may not responsible for our sins? We choose to commit sin freely but that does not imply we are free to make the choice to believe. The will chooses based on its inclinations. That does not mean it has the liberty to chose whatever it is not inclined to choose, namely Christ.

I was expressing the train of thought the line of thinking presented by you can go.

Of course I don't believe we are not responsible for our sin!

You say that because we are sinners, we cannot say yes to Jesus. But when God's grace is dispensed to us, we are saved unless we say no.

But would you not agree that by not saying no, we have chosen to say yes?

I did not say that either. Once again you are making "choice" the centerpiece of salvation. There is a big difference in acknowledging that God has graciously saved us and making the choice for that to happen. I personally believe Christ died for me but I claim no choice by myself in that regard. Do you see the difference between acknowledgment and choice?

sw

[nebula]

Can you be saved without repenting?

[EricH]

Can you be saved without repenting?

Define what you mean by repentance

[germanJoy]

Thank you for reminding us of God's gracious conversion of Paul. Some on here need to take note that Paul's conversion had nothing to do with decision theology, at least not Paul's decision. It was truly God's decision to convert one of his worst enemies and use him to build his Kingdom.

Also, how do you know that God did not use your reading of the Catholic Catechism to prepare you for his conversion of you?

sw

Great question, Worm... I certainly was and am convinced that the CC had nothing to do with my conversion because the more I read it, the more I sinned and rebelled against it and most of all against God. The reasons were evident: As taught by Catechism, I was praying and calling to the little "false" gods like Mary, St. Patrick, Black Nazarene, Sto. Ninyo, St. Joseph, St. Martin, St. Peter, St. Paul, and many many more... I was living my life by myself with these "little gods" without the Holy Spirit of God... I did not know and have the right Way, the revelation of Truth, and the source of Life; in short I did not "personally" know and have Jesus Christ, the ONLY true and living God, the ONLY mediator between God and me... What I had then was just "head knowledge of Christ" from the religion of which I was born into... the Holy Bible ("almost" forbidden and greatly discouraged) was, can and should only be read and interpreted by the priests. The Catechism was there to replace the Bible and was made for simple understanding of the Catholic faith and God. On top of this, I was taught and made to believe all the time that I am saved by my works. Since I was rebellious, I was convinced that my destiny was eternal hell. So now you can imagine how I reacted when I heard the TRUTH of the gospel of Christ for the first time. HALLELUJAH! Isn't our God great and highly to be praised?

germanJoy

While I have never read the CC I have to believe it includes more than just prayers to Mary and the saints. I am sure it includes doctrine about sin and the Law and the need for Christ. I am just as sure RC's do not believe it is a substitute for the Bible. Our Lutheran catechism is very useful for teaching what the Bible says but we do not believe it replaces Scripture. I think its important for churches to openly confess what they believe instead of issuing a vague and brief statement of faith. While I am not a RC its no better having a million little popes with their own interpretation than one. You may have taken away more than you think from your early reading of the CC joy.

sw

Well, Worm, I was not the only one who believed and practiced the wrong doctrines of Catechism, all or exactly 100% of the Catholics in our country believed so as well. Our fellow male believers have themselves literally hanged on the cross with nailed hands to pay for their sins every "Holy Week Passion". This is authored, taught and strongly supported by the Catholic church. Catechism teaches that we need to do penance to pay for our sins...since faith in and the works of Christ are not enough compared to the hugeness of our iniquities. This is really very sad but this is REALITY. That is just one of the few examples of the deception in the teachings. The Lutheran Cathecism is far different and does not teach such deception. Well, although it has its own interpretation of biblical doctrines based on traditions with its limits and weaknesses yet at least it tries to remain biblical. But not so with CC, sad to say.

I only got to know the huge difference between the Bible and the CC when I got to read the Bible myself with the Holy Spirit as my Teacher. And THE BIBLE (the words written) set me FREE!

germanJoy

[st. Worm]

Can you be saved without repenting?

Repentance is not a decision of man, but a humbling of our hearts that God's law inflicts upon us. The subsequent turning to Christ in faith is also a result of the work of the Holy Spirit and not our decision. Repentance is the crushing power of the Law. Faith is the result of the Gospel. Neither is from our choice or will.

sw

[billie]

Can you be saved without repenting?

Repentance is not a decision of man, but a humbling of our hearts that God's law inflicts upon us. The subsequent turning to Christ in faith is also a result of the work of the Holy Spirit and not our decision. Repentance is the crushing power of the Law. Faith is the result of the Gospel. Neither is from our choice or will.

sw

It sounds like yuo're saying if God picks us we don't have a choice but to accept Him......or are you saying we can reject God, we just can't want Him before He wants us? Doesn't He want everyone? Or does there come a specific time in a person's life when He begins to draw that person to Himself? Maybe before that specific time a person in their sinful nature can't want God. Is it a different time for all of us, or does He start once you reach the age of accountability?

[germanJoy]

For example, right after I surrendered my life to Jesus Christ after hearing the gospel, I shared with my family at home with great joy and excitement my new-found experience in Christ.

The problem is the "I" german. Worm and I would say that you had nothing to do with it, only God, it is not about you, and it was not about Paul. Did Paul "make a decision for Christ", no, Paul was knocked blind by Christ Himself, Paul had no choice in the matter. Now Paul could have kept on running from his Lord, but he had no choice about Christ coming to him. Paul was killing Christians and was happy about it, there is no way he would have come to a decision for Christ on his own or made his own choice to surrender anything, Christ used Paul, just as he uses us.

Many people are saved as infants and toddlers, or before they were even born, just as John the Baptist was, they may or may not remember any sort of emotional experience, that does not mean they are not born again. Once again we are adding things to faith alone. Many people cannot remember when they did NOT have faith in Christ as their Lord and Savior.

There is a disturbing formula, which I seem to keep hearing over and over. Somebody grows up, goes wayward and falls into deep sin in their youth, then thinks they made a decision for Christ and is born again. Now these are often great testimonies about what the Lord has done in your life and others and I don

Edited July 20, 2006 by germanJoy

[billie]

I just want to ask a question. I don't want to start an argument. How can infants and toddlers be born-again? Doesn't being born-again require a choice? Can they understand what they're choosing? I'm not making any assertions here. I'm just curious.

[st. Worm]

I just want to ask a question. I don't want to start an argument. How can infants and toddlers be born-again? Doesn't being born-again require a choice? Can they understand what they're choosing? I'm not making any assertions here. I'm just curious.

Did you choose to be born? Of course not! Jesus uses the term and example of "born again" to indicate precisely that being born again is not by the choice or will of a man. Only the born again can believe but belief does not cause one to be born again. It is strictly 100% the work of God.

btw, did you catch the story of little John the Baptist's faith even while he was still in the womb of Elizabeth? I don't think he walked down the aisle at the Billy Graham crusade and made his "decision for Christ" to receive that gift of faith.

sw

[germanJoy]

So, when the athiests in the Outer Court claim that if there is a God, He has no right to send them to Hell for their non-belief in Him because God never revealed Himself to them?

Well that's the old strawman argument nebula, but inhabitants of Hell are there because of their sin and only that. In Romans we read that God has revealed himself to everyone. However, sin blocks us from knowing God through the creation and conscience. We can only know God through Jesus and the gospel by God's grace. Obviously many people lived and died in their sins without ever hearing the gospel or learning about Jesus. Does that make God responsible that they perished in their sins? Of course not.

sw

Do you know angels also preach the gospel? I don't believe that there are those who die without hearing the gospel. God wants us, His children, to do the job of preaching the gospel but if we fail, He is able to send His angles.

And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation, and trible and tonque and people.;" Rev. 14:6

gJ