Faith and salvation, where do they come from?

[EricH]

I just want to ask a question. I don't want to start an argument. How can infants and toddlers be born-again? Doesn't being born-again require a choice? Can they understand what they're choosing? I'm not making any assertions here. I'm just curious.

Did you choose to be born? Of course not! Jesus uses the term and example of "born again" to indicate precisely that being born again is not by the choice or will of a man. Only the born again can believe but belief does not cause one to be born again. It is strictly 100% the work of God.

btw, did you catch the story of little John the Baptist's faith even while he was still in the womb of Elizabeth? I don't think he walked down the aisle at the Billy Graham crusade and made his "decision for Christ" to receive that gift of faith.

sw

I am looking at Luke 1 and do not see the word faith used in conjunction with John leaping in his mother's womb . I see the word joy used.

[st. Worm]

For example, right after I surrendered my life to Jesus Christ after hearing the gospel, I shared with my family at home with great joy and excitement my new-found experience in Christ.

The problem is the "I" german. Worm and I would say that you had nothing to do with it, only God, it is not about you, and it was not about Paul. Did Paul "make a decision for Christ", no, Paul was knocked blind by Christ Himself, Paul had no choice in the matter. Now Paul could have kept on running from his Lord, but he had no choice about Christ coming to him. Paul was killing Christians and was happy about it, there is no way he would have come to a decision for Christ on his own or made his own choice to surrender anything, Christ used Paul, just as he uses us.

Many people are saved as infants and toddlers, or before they were even born, just as John the Baptist was, they may or may not remember any sort of emotional experience, that does not mean they are not born again. Once again we are adding things to faith alone. Many people cannot remember when they did NOT have faith in Christ as their Lord and Savior.

There is a disturbing formula, which I seem to keep hearing over and over. Somebody grows up, goes wayward and falls into deep sin in their youth, then thinks they made a decision for Christ and is born again. Now these are often great testimonies about what the Lord has done in your life and others and I don

[nebula]

Can you be saved without repenting?

Define what you mean by repentance

What did Jesus mean when He said, "Repent"?

Mt 4:17 - From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Mt 11:20 - Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent:

Mr 1:15 - and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

Mr 6:12 - So they went out and preached that people should repent.

Lu 13:3 - I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

Was it a state of being or an action?

[nebula]

Can you be saved without repenting?

Repentance is not a decision of man, but a humbling of our hearts that God's law inflicts upon us. The subsequent turning to Christ in faith is also a result of the work of the Holy Spirit and not our decision. Repentance is the crushing power of the Law. Faith is the result of the Gospel. Neither is from our choice or will.

So - can you repent without yourself taking some form of action?

[st. Worm]

I just want to ask a question. I don't want to start an argument. How can infants and toddlers be born-again? Doesn't being born-again require a choice? Can they understand what they're choosing? I'm not making any assertions here. I'm just curious.

Did you choose to be born? Of course not! Jesus uses the term and example of "born again" to indicate precisely that being born again is not by the choice or will of a man. Only the born again can believe but belief does not cause one to be born again. It is strictly 100% the work of God.

btw, did you catch the story of little John the Baptist's faith even while he was still in the womb of Elizabeth? I don't think he walked down the aisle at the Billy Graham crusade and made his "decision for Christ" to receive that gift of faith.

sw

I am looking at Luke 1 and do not see the word faith used in conjunction with John leaping in his mother's womb . I see the word joy used.

Joy in our Savior is a fruit of the spirit Eric.

[EricH]

I just want to ask a question. I don't want to start an argument. How can infants and toddlers be born-again? Doesn't being born-again require a choice? Can they understand what they're choosing? I'm not making any assertions here. I'm just curious.

Did you choose to be born? Of course not! Jesus uses the term and example of "born again" to indicate precisely that being born again is not by the choice or will of a man. Only the born again can believe but belief does not cause one to be born again. It is strictly 100% the work of God.

btw, did you catch the story of little John the Baptist's faith even while he was still in the womb of Elizabeth? I don't think he walked down the aisle at the Billy Graham crusade and made his "decision for Christ" to receive that gift of faith.

sw

I am looking at Luke 1 and do not see the word faith used in conjunction with John leaping in his mother's womb . I see the word joy used.

Joy in our Savior is a fruit of the spirit Eric.

That is a pretty big logical leap. Especially since at this time the Spirit had not yet ben sent into the world to inhabit believers. That came after pentecost. At this point in time, the Sinai covenant was still in place. The only statement we have is in Luke 1:15 which predicts that John would be filled with the Spirit while still in his mothers wombe. This indicates to me that this was an exception given Johns prophetic calling. It cannot really be used a proof text for Salvation apart form action on the part of the person being saved.

[germanJoy]

I just want to ask a question. I don't want to start an argument. How can infants and toddlers be born-again? Doesn't being born-again require a choice? Can they understand what they're choosing? I'm not making any assertions here. I'm just curious.

Your point is correct, blillielovesdarrin. Infants cannot get born-again for they are not able to recognize their sins thereby their need to be reborn. But the kingdom of God belongs to them according to the words of Christ. When I said infants and toddlers "have sinned", I meant all humans are born into sin because sin entered the world through Adam, we call the "original sin" which Christ had removed and justified. Thus, the "original sin" of the infants/toddlers is removed and justified in Christ. It is the "knowledge of sin", the fruit Adam and Eve ate, that directs us to eternal condemnation which the infants/toddlers do not possess. Thus, there is no condemnation for them.

I guess some will disagree.

germanJoy

[st. Worm]

I just want to ask a question. I don't want to start an argument. How can infants and toddlers be born-again? Doesn't being born-again require a choice? Can they understand what they're choosing? I'm not making any assertions here. I'm just curious.

Did you choose to be born? Of course not! Jesus uses the term and example of "born again" to indicate precisely that being born again is not by the choice or will of a man. Only the born again can believe but belief does not cause one to be born again. It is strictly 100% the work of God.

btw, did you catch the story of little John the Baptist's faith even while he was still in the womb of Elizabeth? I don't think he walked down the aisle at the Billy Graham crusade and made his "decision for Christ" to receive that gift of faith.

sw

I am looking at Luke 1 and do not see the word faith used in conjunction with John leaping in his mother's womb . I see the word joy used.

Joy in our Savior is a fruit of the spirit Eric.

That is a pretty big logical leap. Especially since at this time the Spirit had not yet ben sent into the world to inhabit believers. That came after pentecost. At this point in time, the Sinai covenant was still in place. The only statement we have is in Luke 1:15 which predicts that John would be filled with the Spirit while still in his mothers wombe. This indicates to me that this was an exception given Johns prophetic calling. It cannot really be used a proof text for Salvation apart form action on the part of the person being saved.

... yet there are no proof texts anywhere that salvation is based on a free will decision. The story of John at least indicates that salvation is possible for infants and that it is through the work of the Holy Spirit which filled Elizabeth. To believe otherwise is to consign all other infants to Hell prior to their "decision for Christ" unless of course there truly is a magic age of accountibility. But in reality there is not a single proof text for that either.

sw

[germanJoy]

Based on your beliefs joy, you should not say "Grace of Christ be unto you Smalcald". Instead you should say "I hope your free will helps you earn God's grace!"

sw

On a second thought, "I will to wish Smalcald God's grace", Worm.

[st. Worm]

Based on your beliefs joy, you should not say "Grace of Christ be unto you Smalcald". Instead you should say "I hope your free will helps you earn God's grace!"

sw

On a second thought, "I will to wish Smalcald God's grace", Worm.

And would your old will have made such a wish prior to God's grace of regeneration being performed on you??

sw