Faith and salvation, where do they come from?

[EricH]

I just want to ask a question. I don't want to start an argument. How can infants and toddlers be born-again? Doesn't being born-again require a choice? Can they understand what they're choosing? I'm not making any assertions here. I'm just curious.

Did you choose to be born? Of course not! Jesus uses the term and example of "born again" to indicate precisely that being born again is not by the choice or will of a man. Only the born again can believe but belief does not cause one to be born again. It is strictly 100% the work of God.

btw, did you catch the story of little John the Baptist's faith even while he was still in the womb of Elizabeth? I don't think he walked down the aisle at the Billy Graham crusade and made his "decision for Christ" to receive that gift of faith.

sw

I am looking at Luke 1 and do not see the word faith used in conjunction with John leaping in his mother's womb . I see the word joy used.

Joy in our Savior is a fruit of the spirit Eric.

That is a pretty big logical leap. Especially since at this time the Spirit had not yet ben sent into the world to inhabit believers. That came after pentecost. At this point in time, the Sinai covenant was still in place. The only statement we have is in Luke 1:15 which predicts that John would be filled with the Spirit while still in his mothers wombe. This indicates to me that this was an exception given Johns prophetic calling. It cannot really be used a proof text for Salvation apart form action on the part of the person being saved.

... yet there are no proof texts anywhere that salvation is based on a free will decision. The story of John at least indicates that salvation is possible for infants and that it is through the work of the Holy Spirit which filled Elizabeth. To believe otherwise is to consign all other infants to Hell prior to their "decision for Christ" unless of course there truly is a magic age of accountibility. But in reality there is not a single proof text for that either.

sw

It depends on how one defines free will.

[Smalcald]

For example, right after I surrendered my life to Jesus Christ after hearing the gospel, I shared with my family at home with great joy and excitement my new-found experience in Christ.

The problem is the "I" german. Worm and I would say that you had nothing to do with it, only God, it is not about you, and it was not about Paul. Did Paul "make a decision for Christ", no, Paul was knocked blind by Christ Himself, Paul had no choice in the matter. Now Paul could have kept on running from his Lord, but he had no choice about Christ coming to him. Paul was Christians and was happy about it, there is no way he would have come to a decision for Christ on his own or made his own choice to surrender anything, Christ used Paul, just as he uses us.

Many people are saved as infants and toddlers, or before they were even born, just as John the Baptist was, they may or may not remember any sort of emotional experience, that does not mean they are not born again. Once again we are adding things to faith alone. Many people cannot remember when they did NOT have faith in Christ as their Lord and Savior.

There is a disturbing formula, which I seem to keep hearing over and over. Somebody grows up, goes wayward and falls into deep sin in their youth, then thinks they made a decision for Christ and is born again. Now these are often great testimonies about what the Lord has done in your life and others and I don

[germanJoy]

Sure all of us continually sin, and all of us are in need of repentance. Do you think someone who has faith in Christ from infancy does not know sin or repent of sin? The people that have true faith all repent of their sin, they repent of it daily, all of their past sins.

Oh, no no no... that is why we need to be born-again, Smalcald... in order for us to cease from continually sinning. I do not know how you view the word "repent". You equate the word "repent" like you do with "faith". "Repent" means "not doing the same sin over and over again; to completely turn away from it". If I am repenting the same sin everyday, it means I am commiting it also everyday. The word "repentance" no longer applies but a habitual and willful repetition of the sinful act which awaits judgement and God's wrath.

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgement, and the FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES." Heb. 10:26

So you are saying that there is a specific formula that is in addition to simply having a saving faith in Christ, that those who have always have had faith in Christ since they can remember did not follow? This would say that their faith is not enough. You see where this takes us? There is no biblical formula for salvation beyond being born again and having faith in Christ. There is no need to fall away, sin heavily then have a big emotional born again experience. This does happen and praise God it does!! But it is not some sort of requirement. God s lack of belief, God s lack of faith, God s all sin, why would God want us to go through some weird period of falling away and hating God, before calling us all back? No, God's will is God's will, the Holy Sprit offers all salvation, some come to salvation as an infant, toddler, unborn, teenager, some come as s. All are valid as long as true saving faith is present. Faith alone, means faith alone. When we put all of these additional requirements on faith, it is exactly as the RCC does, in that case having a born again experience that you can remember and if you don't you are not saved, is no different from saying that if you don't go to mass on day xyz and die without repenting, you go to purgatory, etc. It is an additional extra-biblical requirement added to faith.

But what is a true saving faith? Isn't it one that brings forth works of righteousness? A true saving faith is made alive by works. Thus, James said faith without works is dead for faith is working with works and as a result of works, faith is perfected. For a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:22-24

Many christians (who are born into the religion) are fooled by a belief that their faith requires NO WORKS. So they take things for granted and sinning becomes a habit for them. Then they end up insulting the SPIRIT OF GRACE and trampling under foot the SON OF GOD regarding as UNCLEAN the blood of the Covenant (Heb. 10:29). While the Protestants required FAITH without works, the RCC took the other extreme they required WORKS with faith. The bible however requires FAITH with works as its result, neither WORKS with faith (RCC) nor FAITH without works (Protestant).

But what about Ephesians 2:8-9? "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast." If we analyze this statement, it says salvation is through FAITH and not through WORKS. It only says that WORKS do not save you but it DOES NOT SAY that WORKS are not needed. In fact, GOOD WORKS are part of our FAITH. The bottleneck of the Protestants is to ignore the following verse.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

Before I am accussed of anything, allow me first to specify what these WORKS are. Works that God honor are works of righteousness, not of unrighteousness like praying the rosary, attending mass, doing penance, and the like. The works of righteousness are evident: the fruits of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22) and the works of Jesus Christ (Matthew 11:5) and of course anything that says NO to SIN and YES to righteousness, NO to SATAN and YES to CHRIST.

Now those who go to mass on holy days xyz because they have true faith in Jesus Christ are indeed saved, and those who have emotional born again experiences as s or teens AND have true faith are indeed saved, as is the ten year old who has a deep faith in Jesus Christ as his Lord and always has had that faith.

That is what you say, Smalcald...compared to what Jesus said, it is not as easy as you think. ONE HAS TO DIE...otherwise you just do it by yourself... but if you die, you will bear fruit.

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

He who loves his life loses it; and he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to eternal life. John 12:24-25

Biblically if you confess with your mouth and believe with your heart, your are saved, there is no memory requirement, there is no experience requirement, there is no Mass attendance requirement there is no age requirement, there is no intellectual requirement, and on and on, these all add to the words of Holy Scripture.

You see even in these verses there is an ACTION (confess and believe)... there is a WORK OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (believing with the heart)... there is a RESULT OF SALVATION (confessing with the mouth).

An adulteress receives faith, gets born-again, and repents. She then turns away from the sin of adultery and commits it no more. God's grace and her faith in Christ led her to good works of repentance that made her to cease from sinning. That is true REPENTANCE, the result of being born of God's Spirit that makes her a new creation where the OLD THINGS (sinful life) have passed and the NEW THINGS (holy and righteous life in Christ) have come. However, the nature of sin within her old self need yet to be mastered and overcome and when this sinful nature rises up, she confesses it and God is faithful to forgive her of all unrighteousness.

Another adulteress has faith since childhood, goes to church regularly, repents daily and sins habitually, and believes her faith will save her. But she never turns away from the sin of adultery, she sees no need to be born-again for she believes she got born again as an infant. Where do you think her faith would bring her? Shall we as a church tolerate such lifestyle of sin?

The difference between the devil and the children of God is this:

The devil believes but disobeys... the children of God believe and obey.

Edited July 21, 2006 by germanJoy

[Smalcald]

Sorry German joys we all sin, including you. Do we have help from the Holy Spirit in our battle against the flesh? Yes we do, in fact that is one of the ways we assure ourselves that indeed the Holy Spirit is within us, that we are born again and that we have faith. Faith indeed produces works by itself, all of our good works were prepared for us by God to walk in, they are not from us, and we must lose this idea of having any righteousness outside of God. The versus you quoted make this case.

Let me address some of these points, and I think we can see where this idea of self-righteousness outside of God can take us into error.

But what is a true saving faith? Isn't it one that brings forth works of righteousness? A true saving faith is made alive by works. Thus, James said faith without works is dead for faith is working with works and as a result of works, faith is perfected. For a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:22-24

James is talking about what a true faith does. All those who have a true saving faith will of course be bursting forth with works; a dead faith is no faith. Now, once again there is no mention here of the formula you proposed earlier, faith is faith, no need to add any of the mental or experiential requirements.

But what about Ephesians 2:8-9? "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."

But I thought since that YOU made a decision for Christ it had something to do with your humility and ability to repent? This verse makes our case; it is God alone and faith alone, not any decision that WE made. If you deep inside believe that you had something to do with having faith, then of course boasting and self-righteousness creep in. This causes people to say things like, "well if you didn't have experience xyz, you are NOT really saved (like me) even though you have faith to death, it is not real unless you first were very sinful, then had an emotional born again experience" that idea is not biblical and on its face ridiculous. God hates all sin and desires our whole life to be lived in His faith from childhood on.

Your next verse confirms this, all of our works were prepared by God beforehand, we just walk through them, they are not ours.

Many christians (who are born into the religion) are fooled by a belief that their faith requires NO WORKS. So they take things for granted and sinning becomes a habit for them

What do you mean born into the religion? Without faith, they are not in the true religion. Only faith saves, faith has many implications, but as far as people taking sinning for granted and becoming a habit for them, do you really want to throw stones in that direction? Take a look at the congregations which hold to the necessity of remembering a born again experience, I have seen no difference in this problem of sinning among those congregations than others who do not have extra requirements to faith. I mean we could start looking at things like divorce and we see the fallacy of this type of idea. But I don't think it is healthy to go down that road for us, but certainly you can make no real claims in that area and back them up.

An adulteress receives faith, gets born-again, and repents. She then turns away from the sin of adultery and commits it no more. God's grace and her faith in Christ led her to good works of repentance that made her to cease from sinning. That is true REPENTANCE, the result of being born of God's Spirit that makes her a new creation where the OLD THINGS (sinful life) have passed and the NEW THINGS (holy and righteous life in Christ) have come. However, the nature of sin within her old self need yet to be mastered and overcome and when this sinful nature rises up, she confesses it and God is faithful to forgive her of all unrighteousness.

Another adulteress has faith since childhood, goes to church regularly, repents daily and sins habitually, and believes her faith will save her. But she never turns away from the sin of adultery, she sees no need to be born-again for she believes she got born again as an infant. Where do you think her faith would bring her? Shall we as a church tolerate such lifestyle of sin? emot-shakehead.gif

But the story could and is in my opinion more often the inverse. The woman who has faith from childhood does not sin habitually because she is born again and has faith from childhood. You seem to assume I guess because you don't believe children are saved or can have true saving faith, that ALL people go through this formula of a wild life, then an emotional experience and a big change as adults. No if she has faith from childhood she will be walking with the Lord from childhood. She does not have some hedonistic period to her life when she rejects Christ; she follows Christ from her childhood, as the bible says, you have known the scriptures since you were young. While the adulteress who has a born again experience and is told that she is once saved always saved, well frankly she often simply goes back to the old life, having believed she had her ticket punched. In fact I see an awful lot of thin soil in these types of congregations, all emotion, then come back in ten or twenty years, where are they? But if it is true faith, both those women will turn and repent from all of their sin and with the help of the Holy Spirit resist the flesh.

Faith is faith, and you are correct without it we are lost, without it we have no real guard or power against the sinful desires that war in our flesh, and with faith we will hate our sin and strive through the Holy Spirit to repent and of course turn from this sin. But that has nothing to do with having faith from childhood or having faith from adulthood, there is no difference, there is no need biblically to have some sort of decision or experience, faith is faith.

[st. Worm]

Sorry German joys we all sin, including you. Do we have help from the Holy Spirit in our battle against the flesh? Yes we do, in fact that is one of the ways we assure ourselves that indeed the Holy Spirit is within us, that we are born again and that we have faith. Faith indeed produces works by itself, all of our good works were prepared for us by God to walk in, they are not from us, and we must lose this idea of having any righteousness outside of God. The versus you quoted make this case.

Let me address some of these points, and I think we can see where this idea of self-righteousness outside of God can take us into error.

But what is a true saving faith? Isn't it one that brings forth works of righteousness? A true saving faith is made alive by works. Thus, James said faith without works is dead for faith is working with works and as a result of works, faith is perfected. For a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:22-24

James is talking about what a true faith does. All those who have a true saving faith will of course be bursting forth with works; a dead faith is no faith. Now, once again there is no mention here of the formula you proposed earlier, faith is faith, no need to add any of the mental or experiential requirements.

But what about Ephesians 2:8-9? "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."

But I thought since that YOU made a decision for Christ it had something to do with your humility and ability to repent? This verse makes our case; it is God alone and faith alone, not any decision that WE made. If you deep inside believe that you had something to do with having faith, then of course boasting and self-righteousness creep in. This causes people to say things like, "well if you didn't have experience xyz, you are NOT really saved (like me) even though you have faith to death, it is not real unless you first were very sinful, then had an emotional born again experience" that idea is not biblical and on its face ridiculous. God hates all sin and desires our whole life to be lived in His faith from childhood on.

Your next verse confirms this, all of our works were prepared by God beforehand, we just walk through them, they are not ours.

Many christians (who are born into the religion) are fooled by a belief that their faith requires NO WORKS. So they take things for granted and sinning becomes a habit for them

What do you mean born into the religion? Without faith, they are not in the true religion. Only faith saves, faith has many implications, but as far as people taking sinning for granted and becoming a habit for them, do you really want to throw stones in that direction? Take a look at the congregations which hold to the necessity of remembering a born again experience, I have seen no difference in this problem of sinning among those congregations than others who do not have extra requirements to faith. I mean we could start looking at things like divorce and we see the fallacy of this type of idea. But I don't think it is healthy to go down that road for us, but certainly you can make no real claims in that area and back them up.

An adulteress receives faith, gets born-again, and repents. She then turns away from the sin of adultery and commits it no more. God's grace and her faith in Christ led her to good works of repentance that made her to cease from sinning. That is true REPENTANCE, the result of being born of God's Spirit that makes her a new creation where the OLD THINGS (sinful life) have passed and the NEW THINGS (holy and righteous life in Christ) have come. However, the nature of sin within her old self need yet to be mastered and overcome and when this sinful nature rises up, she confesses it and God is faithful to forgive her of all unrighteousness.

Another adulteress has faith since childhood, goes to church regularly, repents daily and sins habitually, and believes her faith will save her. But she never turns away from the sin of adultery, she sees no need to be born-again for she believes she got born again as an infant. Where do you think her faith would bring her? Shall we as a church tolerate such lifestyle of sin? emot-shakehead.gif

But the story could and is in my opinion more often the inverse. The woman who has faith from childhood does not sin habitually because she is born again and has faith from childhood. You seem to assume I guess because you don't believe children are saved or can have true saving faith, that ALL people go through this formula of a wild life, then an emotional experience and a big change as adults. No if she has faith from childhood she will be walking with the Lord from childhood. She does not have some hedonistic period to her life when she rejects Christ; she follows Christ from her childhood, as the bible says, you have known the scriptures since you were young. While the adulteress who has a born again experience and is told that she is once saved always saved, well frankly she often simply goes back to the old life, having believed she had her ticket punched. In fact I see an awful lot of thin soil in these types of congregations, all emotion, then come back in ten or twenty years, where are they? But if it is true faith, both those women will turn and repent from all of their sin and with the help of the Holy Spirit resist the flesh.

Faith is faith, and you are correct without it we are lost, without it we have no real guard or power against the sinful desires that war in our flesh, and with faith we will hate our sin and strive through the Holy Spirit to repent and of course turn from this sin. But that has nothing to do with having faith from childhood or having faith from adulthood, there is no difference, there is no need biblically to have some sort of decision or experience, faith is faith.

Smalcald, germanjoy means well but the truth is she seems to be on the Bill Bright "spiritual jetstream" or the glorious hot air balloon. Recall the quote I posted yesterday where Bright thought he was on a self-described spiritual jetstream and felt he really had few sins if any to actually confess. Such thinking is of course dangerous but all too common these days. Many churches seem more concerned with playing "pin the tail on the anti-Christ" than preaching Christ crucified and telling their congregations what sinners they really are.

Luther's Thesis 21 from his Heidelberg Disputation seems appropo in light of such thinking. "A theology of glory calls evil good and good evil. A theology of the cross calls the thing what it actually is." When we can't face the truth of what we really are we indeed are calling evil good. Of course her predictable response, which will say something like we are condoning sin is missing the point and not true at all. Real repentance is not the faulty thinking that we have overcome sin which is where she seems to be, but the acknowledge and sorrow for our sin and a return to Christ. The virtue and morality she seems to be claiming is precisely the sin that Jesus died for. And her idea that we can somehow see our need to be born again is at the core of her thinking. We can no more see that than we can see the need to be born physically in the first place.

sw

[nebula]

the faulty thinking that we have overcome sin

Then why is it commanded to overcome?

Rev. 2-3

2:7 - To him who overcomes....

2:8 - He who overcomes....

2:17 - To him who overcomes....

2:26 - And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end....

3:5 - He who overcomes....

3:12 - He who overcomes....

3:21 - To him who overcomes....

Hebrews 12

1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.

4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.

Romans 13

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

[st. Worm]

the faulty thinking that we have overcome sin

Then why is it commanded to overcome?

Rev. 2-3

2:7 - To him who overcomes....

2:8 - He who overcomes....

2:17 - To him who overcomes....

2:26 - And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end....

3:5 - He who overcomes....

3:12 - He who overcomes....

3:21 - To him who overcomes....

Hebrews 12

1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.

4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.

Romans 13

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

To quote Peter Jensen, "Since the advent of printing and literacy it has become common for the Bible to be read by individuals. This obscures the corporate significance of Scripture as the instrument by which Christ rules his church. The narrative element of Scripture, indeed, the narrative line, is of fundamental significance in revealing not merely the person of God, but the identity and nature of the church."

With regard to your question about the passages of Revelation nebula, how do you avoid that the entire context is a message to specific churches? Perhaps the most misused verse in history is the Word of God to the Church in Laodecia in Rev. 3:20. It is universally used by revivalists as a "proof text" for decision theology. Nothing could be further from the truth when we remember the context of the verse.

In the same vein we also tend to "versify" Scripture in way that would not have been possible in the original writings. There were no convenient numbers for us to divide in a way not intended the message as it was given to us. The central message of Scripture is about Christ saving his people, not our earning it by our fighting or our overcoming.

No one, especially Smalcald, is saying believers do not fight against sin. No one is saying believers are to be cavalier about it either. By God's grace He works in us and gives us strength when we are weak. But it seems you are a prime example of what Jensen is referring. You tend to individualize parts of Scripture in a way it is not intended. Also I really have a hard time distinguishing your doctrine from that of Rome. You start off with a "decision" for Christ but instead of living life under the cross you run as fast as possible back to the Law, and salvation ultimately becomes more like earning boy scout merit badges. You even stated in a prior post (I am fairly certain it was you) that sanctifcation precedes the gospel and justification! We can exchange individual verses all day but if you remain of the mindset that in the ultimate sense salvation is determined by the work of the sinner and what we do it becomes somewhat pointless.

sw

[nebula]

The central message of Scripture is about Christ saving his people, not our earning it by our fighting or our overcoming.

I am talking post-salvation Christian living, not how to get saved.

You remind me of Paul's rebuke to those who use their freedom in Christ to justify their sin.

[st. Worm]

The central message of Scripture is about Christ saving his people, not our earning it by our fighting or our overcoming.

I am talking post-salvation Christian living, not how to get saved.

You remind me of Paul's rebuke to those who use their freedom in Christ to justify their sin.

You are much like germanjoy Nebula. In the last response to her I predicted she would twist my words to say I was condoning sin. That exactly what you did.

You are determined to make the faith a system of good works that one must complete and just as determined to make the Bible nothing more than a code book of ethics. I know of nothing in the Bible that says we are saved by a lifestyle or "Christian living". Further, nothing I have ever said indicates we are to life sinfully. However the righteousness we have is apart from the Law. It comes from faith. The Law is not a remedy for sin no matter how hard you want to believe that.

sw

[germanJoy]

Sorry German joys we all sin, including you. Do we have help from the Holy Spirit in our battle against the flesh? Yes we do, in fact that is one of the ways we assure ourselves that indeed the Holy Spirit is within us, that we are born again and that we have faith. Faith indeed produces works by itself, all of our good works were prepared for us by God to walk in, they are not from us, and we must lose this idea of having any righteousness outside of God. The versus you quoted make this case.

We need to distinguish between "having sin" and "practicing sin" in order for us to communicate effectively. Yes indeed, we all have sin or have sinned: If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us...If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." 1 John 1:8-10 To have sin or have sinned means we are in the body of sin i.e., the flesh thus we are instructed by Paul to walk in the Spirit that we may not gratify the lust of the flesh. Although our spirit is willing, our flesh is weak. And this is where our complete dependence on the Holy Spirit becomes a necessity for us to be able to overcome sin. It is a battle and we are expected to work with and not against the Holy Spirit in fighting the battle between the spirit and the flesh. If we overcome, we glorify God and He is glorified in us. But if we fail, we confess our sin and God is so faithful to forgive us, so timely to convict us, so good to teach us, and so great to be with us and make us victorious. God alone gets the glory Smalcald, no flesh deserves any glory.

John the Apostle clearly identified "practicing sin" as different from "having sin". While "having sin" is a normal state, "practicing sin" is abnormal and is untolerable. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness...Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God." 1 John 3:4-9

Conclusion: No born-again christian practices sin but a born-again christian can have sin.

James is talking about what a true faith does. All those who have a true saving faith will of course be bursting forth with works; a dead faith is no faith. Now, once again there is no mention here of the formula you proposed earlier, faith is faith, no need to add any of the mental or experiential requirements.

Wrong, faith becomes true faith if accompanied by works. James pointed out the example of true faith in the deeds of Rahab the harlot.

And in the same way was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works, when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? James 2:25

Faith alone without works is dead. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. James 2:17

Faith is "believe and obey", it is not "believe without obedience". Abraham also believed and obeyed by offering Isaac as a result of his faith. Had Abraham just believed without offering Isaac, his faith would be dead too.

But I thought since that YOU made a decision for Christ it had something to do with your humility and ability to repent? This verse makes our case; it is God alone and faith alone, not any decision that WE made. If you deep inside believe that you had something to do with having faith, then of course boasting and self-righteousness creep in. This causes people to say things like, "well if you didn't have experience xyz, you are NOT really saved (like me) even though you have faith to death, it is not real unless you first were very sinful, then had an emotional born again experience" that idea is not biblical and on its face ridiculous. God hates all sin and desires our whole life to be lived in His faith from childhood on.

Well, I know a rich righteous man who came to Jesus and asked "what he must do to be saved". Ironical that this man wants to know how he can enter God's kingdom by his own action. Surprisingly, Jesus did not oppose him to the face by saying "how dare you think you can do something for your salvation; it is God's choice not for you to do anything." On the contrary, Christ Himself confirmed "he must do this and this and this...to get saved." Well, this man told Jesus that he had been STRICTLY following ALL God's commandment from childhood without failing. And Jesus finally said (paraphrasing mine) "you can't be as good and perfect as you think, no one is good except God. Ok I tell you what you lack..." and you know the rest of the story. The man finally was not able to enter God's kingdom even though he followed God from childhood.

Your next verse confirms this, all of our works were prepared by God beforehand, we just walk through them, they are not ours.

If these works are not ours Smalcald, why will God reward us of our works then? Yes, our works (even our whole lives) are in God's hands which He predestined for us. I do not disagree with that. But yet, we got to take the step of walking through these works for if we don't, our faith is dead.

What do you mean born into the religion? Without faith, they are not in the true religion. Only faith saves, faith has many implications, but as far as people taking sinning for granted and becoming a habit for them, do you really want to throw stones in that direction? Take a look at the congregations which hold to the necessity of remembering a born again experience, I have seen no difference in this problem of sinning among those congregations than others who do not have extra requirements to faith. I mean we could start looking at things like divorce and we see the fallacy of this type of idea. But I don't think it is healthy to go down that road for us, but certainly you can make no real claims in that area and back them up.

I cannot compare my experience with the congregations than yours for obviously mine is different. This could be the reason why we arrive at different opinions basing on our respective experiences and observations. For discussion's sake, our congregration (born-again) has almost zero while the "other ones (non born-again)" have very high divorce rate and immorality issues. I am not throwing stones at anyone for I am the least to possess any. I only want to emphasize the need to die to self and be born from above.

But the story could and is in my opinion more often the inverse. The woman who has faith from childhood does not sin habitually because she is born again and has faith from childhood. You seem to assume I guess because you don't believe children are saved or can have true saving faith, that ALL people go through this formula of a wild life, then an emotional experience and a big change as adults. No if she has faith from childhood she will be walking with the Lord from childhood. She does not have some hedonistic period to her life when she rejects Christ; she follows Christ from her childhood, as the bible says, you have known the scriptures since you were young. While the adulteress who has a born again experience and is told that she is once saved always saved, well frankly she often simply goes back to the old life, having believed she had her ticket punched. In fact I see an awful lot of thin soil in these types of congregations, all emotion, then come back in ten or twenty years, where are they? But if it is true faith, both those women will turn and repent from all of their sin and with the help of the Holy Spirit resist the flesh.

I am still convinced that NO ONE, not a single person on earth, is free of sin and guilt and had always been following Christ since childhood. I have two daughters, both believe in Christ, the older is rebellious and the younger is very well-behaved. Well, while the older often apologizes, the younger seldom does apologize, if not never, even though she sometimes does wrong. As I see both growing up, I feel that the younger would one day be needing more repentance and faith in Christ as I see in her the danger of falling into SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS. Are you getting my point?

Faith is faith, and you are correct without it we are lost, without it we have no real guard or power against the sinful desires that war in our flesh, and with faith we will hate our sin and strive through the Holy Spirit to repent and of course turn from this sin. But that has nothing to do with having faith from childhood or having faith from adulthood, there is no difference, there is no need biblically to have some sort of decision or experience, faith is faith.

Unless A MAN (not a child) is born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.