Faith and salvation, where do they come from?

[germanJoy]

Thank you for reminding us of God's gracious conversion of Paul. Some on here need to take note that Paul's conversion had nothing to do with decision theology, at least not Paul's decision. It was truly God's decision to convert one of his worst enemies and use him to build his Kingdom.

Also, how do you know that God did not use your reading of the Catholic Catechism to prepare you for his conversion of you?

sw

Great question, Worm... I certainly was and am convinced that the CC had nothing to do with my conversion because the more I read it, the more I sinned and rebelled against it and most of all against God. The reasons were evident: As taught by Catechism, I was praying and calling to the little "false" gods like Mary, St. Patrick, Black Nazarene, Sto. Ninyo, St. Joseph, St. Martin, St. Peter, St. Paul, and many many more... I was living my life by myself with these "little gods" without the Holy Spirit of God... I did not know and have the right Way, the revelation of Truth, and the source of Life; in short I did not "personally" know and have Jesus Christ, the ONLY true and living God, the ONLY mediator between God and me... What I had then was just "head knowledge of Christ" from the religion of which I was born into... the Holy Bible ("almost" forbidden and greatly discouraged) was, can and should only be read and interpreted by the priests. The Catechism was there to replace the Bible and was made for simple understanding of the Catholic faith and God. On top of this, I was taught and made to believe all the time that I am saved by my works. Since I was rebellious, I was convinced that my destiny was eternal hell. So now you can imagine how I reacted when I heard the TRUTH of the gospel of Christ for the first time. HALLELUJAH! Isn't our God great and highly to be praised?

germanJoy

Edited July 20, 2006 by germanJoy

[st. Worm]

Thank you for reminding us of God's gracious conversion of Paul. Some on here need to take note that Paul's conversion had nothing to do with decision theology, at least not Paul's decision. It was truly God's decision to convert one of his worst enemies and use him to build his Kingdom.

Also, how do you know that God did not use your reading of the Catholic Catechism to prepare you for his conversion of you?

sw

Great question, Worm... I certainly was and am convinced that the CC had nothing to do with my conversion because the more I read it, the more I sinned and rebelled against it and most of all against God. The reasons were evident: As taught by Catechism, I was praying and calling to the little "false" gods like Mary, St. Patrick, Black Nazarene, Sto. Ninyo, St. Joseph, St. Martin, St. Peter, St. Paul, and many many more... I was living my life by myself with these "little gods" without the Holy Spirit of God... I did not know and have the right Way, the revelation of Truth, and the source of Life; in short I did not "personally" know and have Jesus Christ, the ONLY true and living God, the ONLY mediator between God and me... What I had then was just "head knowledge of Christ" from the religion of which I was born into... the Holy Bible ("almost" forbidden and greatly discouraged) was, can and should only be read and interpreted by the priests. The Catechism was there to replace the Bible and was made for simple understanding of the Catholic faith and God. On top of this, I was taught and made to believe all the time that I am saved by my works. Since I was rebellious, I was convinced that my destiny was eternal hell. So now you can imagine how I reacted when I heard the TRUTH of the gospel of Christ for the first time. HALLELUJAH! Isn't our God great and highly to be praised?

germanJoy

While I have never read the CC I have to believe it includes more than just prayers to Mary and the saints. I am sure it includes doctrine about sin and the Law and the need for Christ. I am just as sure RC's do not believe it is a substitute for the Bible. Our Lutheran catechism is very useful for teaching what the Bible says but we do not believe it replaces Scripture. I think its important for churches to openly confess what they believe instead of issuing a vague and brief statement of faith. While I am not a RC its no better having a million little popes with their own interpretation than one. You may have taken away more than you think from your early reading of the CC joy.

sw

[Smalcald]

For example, right after I surrendered my life to Jesus Christ after hearing the gospel, I shared with my family at home with great joy and excitement my new-found experience in Christ.

The problem is the "I" german. Worm and I would say that you had nothing to do with it, only God, it is not about you, and it was not about Paul. Did Paul "make a decision for Christ", no, Paul was knocked blind by Christ Himself, Paul had no choice in the matter. Now Paul could have kept on running from his Lord, but he had no choice about Christ coming to him. Paul was killing Christians and was happy about it, there is no way he would have come to a decision for Christ on his own or made his own choice to surrender anything, Christ used Paul, just as he uses us.

Many people are saved as infants and toddlers, or before they were even born, just as John the Baptist was, they may or may not remember any sort of emotional experience, that does not mean they are not born again. Once again we are adding things to faith alone. Many people cannot remember when they did NOT have faith in Christ as their Lord and Savior.

There is a disturbing formula, which I seem to keep hearing over and over. Somebody grows up, goes wayward and falls into deep sin in their youth, then thinks they made a decision for Christ and is born again. Now these are often great testimonies about what the Lord has done in your life and others and I don

[nebula]

So, when the athiests in the Outer Court claim that if there is a God, He has no right to send them to Hell for their non-belief in Him because God never revealed Himself to them?

[billie]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. If we have no choice in the matter of whether to believe or not, why would God send some one to Hell for something they didn't choose or not choose? Maybe I just don't get it....

[st. Worm]

So, when the athiests in the Outer Court claim that if there is a God, He has no right to send them to Hell for their non-belief in Him because God never revealed Himself to them?

Well that's the old strawman argument nebula, but inhabitants of Hell are there because of their sin and only that. In Romans we read that God has revealed himself to everyone. However, sin blocks us from knowing God through the creation and conscience. We can only know God through Jesus and the gospel by God's grace. Obviously many people lived and died in their sins without ever hearing the gospel or learning about Jesus. Does that make God responsible that they perished in their sins? Of course not.

sw

[nebula]

So, when the athiests in the Outer Court claim that if there is a God, He has no right to send them to Hell for their non-belief in Him because God never revealed Himself to them?

Well that's the old strawman argument nebula, but inhabitants of Hell are there because of their sin and only that. In Romans we read that God has revealed himself to everyone. However, sin blocks us from knowing God through the creation and conscience.

But if we cannot chose to be saved, how can we chose to not be saved?

We can only know God through Jesus and the gospel by God's grace.

Not arguing or questioning this.

Obviously many people lived and died in their sins without ever hearing the gospel or learning about Jesus. Does that make God responsible that they perished in their sins? Of course not.

That's not the question, either.

**

If God reveals Himself to everyone, and upon God's revealing Himself we are saved because His grace has fallen on us, that is we canot help but to be saved - how can people people not be saved?

[billie]

So, when the athiests in the Outer Court claim that if there is a God, He has no right to send them to Hell for their non-belief in Him because God never revealed Himself to them?

Well that's the old strawman argument nebula, but inhabitants of Hell are there because of their sin and only that. In Romans we read that God has revealed himself to everyone. However, sin blocks us from knowing God through the creation and conscience. We can only know God through Jesus and the gospel by God's grace. Obviously many people lived and died in their sins without ever hearing the gospel or learning about Jesus. Does that make God responsible that they perished in their sins? Of course not.

sw

Are you trying to say that people who never hear about Jesus automatically go to Hell? The God I know and love wouldn't let that happen. The Bible says for those who've never heard the gospel, they're judged according to the conscience God has given them. The Bible also says that the Lord is fair. To have people going to Hell just because they never had the oppurtunity to accept Jesus....that's not fair.

[st. Worm]

So, when the athiests in the Outer Court claim that if there is a God, He has no right to send them to Hell for their non-belief in Him because God never revealed Himself to them?

Well that's the old strawman argument nebula, but inhabitants of Hell are there because of their sin and only that. In Romans we read that God has revealed himself to everyone. However, sin blocks us from knowing God through the creation and conscience.

But if we cannot chose to be saved, how can we chose to not be saved?

We can only know God through Jesus and the gospel by God's grace.

Not arguing or questioning this.

Obviously many people lived and died in their sins without ever hearing the gospel or learning about Jesus. Does that make God responsible that they perished in their sins? Of course not.

That's not the question, either.

**

If God reveals Himself to everyone, and upon God's revealing Himself we are saved because His grace has fallen on us, that is we canot help but to be saved - how can people people not be saved?

"But if we cannot chose to be saved, how can we chose to not be saved?" - nebula quote

We need not choose not to be saved. We are born dead sinners, apart from God and lost. The fact we cannot choose to be saved in our natural state has no relevance to the fact we are lost apart from a specific choice of ours. As long as your mindset is in the free will error and a belief that salvation is based on our choice you cannot really grasp just how graceful God is to those who are saved nebula.

sw

[nebula]

As long as your mindset is in the free will error and a belief that salvation is based on our choice you cannot really grasp just how graceful God is to those who are saved nebula.

Your wording here shows that you keep missing what we have been saying.

None of us have claimed salvation is based on choice.

It's like this. We are born sinners. Therefore we cannot help but sin. Therefore we do not chose to sin. When we sin, then, we are being our natural selves. Therefore, when God punishes us for our sin, He is punishing us for something we have absolutely no control over. Is this what you believe?

Please explain.