Aljazeera poll

[buckthesystem]

You're wrong Nebula, I never said that I wanted American troops to leave Iraq. Indeed I don't believe that the problem is so simple that it would be solved by just withdrawing all the troops. So don't assume anything or accuse anybody of being a "liberal" and therefore "lower than snailslime" and "that says it all". I don't consider myself to be a liberal at all, but if to be concerned about human dignity or human life is to be a liberal, I might change.

I just thought you seemed to be trivialising the deaths of families in Iraq and saying "well, that happens, nobody is to blame" and saying that there is nothing to be concerned about, if innocent families, or anybody else for that matter, get in the way of soldiers "playing around with grenade launchers".

No, it doesn't "just happen". It is not as if grenade launchers spontaneously materialised in Iraq and equally as spontaneously exploded, killing people.

Please don't take anything personally. I am not dis'ing America or Americans in any way, or bagging your troops or anything, I just think that we should all be honest and accountable for our actions.

[Bob Dole]

There are people who area better off, but then there are a lot of people who have had their families killed by American soldiers that were just playing around with their grenade launchers (ok the news will never report it like that because the soldiers will keep the information from them, but believe me, it's happened.)

This statement is more than mere speculation, it's a malicious rumor. You either need to stick to the facts and provide your proof at the time you make these statements, or keep them to yourself.

I figured someone would say that. I heard this from a person who will remain nameless because they are the soldier in question. I heard it right from the soldier's mouth, and I'd rather not give more details for reasons I'm sure you can understand.

Did this person say that they had done this themselves, that they had witnessed it, or that they had heard of it happening? While I believe it is possible and that it has been kept a secret by our military, I find it very unlikely that had actually happened. I find it easier to believe in acts of unprovoked violence than I do a soldier playing with his rocket launcher and accidentaly destroying a house and the people living in it.

Yes this person said they had done it themselves (and it wasn't the first time it's happened just the first time for this person.) I know how it happened and the whole story behind it, I'm not going into detail and it should be obvious why.

That is sad that stuff like that happens.

Unfotunately, there isn't any real way to avoid bad stuff happening. Even driving on the highway has its tragedies.

We need to be careful about how we wage judgment on this.

Are you saying that the people in Iraq can expect "bad stuff" to happen to them merely because they live in Iraq? Perhaps just as by "driving on the highway" we are taking a risk, their risk is trying to live an ordinary life in an occupied country?

If we were driving on the highway and our family was killed by (say) a highway patrolman playing round with his gun, would we just accept it and say "there is no way to avoid bad stuff happening and this family was on the highway where there is a risk of that happening" and we can't attach any accountability to the person playing round with his gun?

No that isn't what I was saying.

The point is you and "Bob Dole" just want our soldiers out of Iraq, no matter if that does more harm to Iraq than good, so anything I say you will just fight against, so I won't bother trying.

I don't remember saying that at all, I was just pointing out that the poll was not a very good indication of anything in Iraq by showing a different poll shows the same number of people want us out of Iraq. A better poll would be if you went into Iraq and asked a large number of people. I believe we shouldn't have gone there in the first place, and we've done a terrible job over there but the soldiers should stay till the job is done and Iraq can stand on it's own. I've even considered joining the Marines myself and helping with the war effort, I might enlist at the end of the year with my friend.

[O'Dannyboy]

I too wish very much to see our troops withdraw from Iraq as soon as possible but only when Iraq will be able to handle its own security problems. I am less concerned with trying to rebuild their entire country for them as long as the infrastructure is intact at the time of withdrawl. When nations like Afghanistan debate re-implementing sharia law I just assume pull out and let Kharzia deal with the Talliban himself. I, for one, am confused about how we wound up in Afghanistan to begin with. How are these regional warlords a threat to United States security?

[nebula]

Buck and Bob -

My appologies.

Buck - I did not mean to trivialize their deaths. It did sound to me, though, like this example was given as the typical "why the US in Iraq is so bad" argument, and it was this perceived attitude I was attempting to address.

Hope that helps.

[Guest WomanInPurple]

Dubya has no reason for War in Iraq.

[Bob Dole]

I too wish very much to see our troops withdraw from Iraq as soon as possible but only when Iraq will be able to handle its own security problems. I am less concerned with trying to rebuild their entire country for them as long as the infrastructure is intact at the time of withdrawl. When nations like Afghanistan debate re-implementing sharia law I just assume pull out and let Kharzia deal with the Talliban himself. I, for one, am confused about how we wound up in Afghanistan to begin with. How are these regional warlords a threat to United States security?

... You're confused as to why the U.S. invaded the country that was run by the army of the person who attacked us on September 11th? You're asking why Osama Bin Laden and his warlords are a threat to U.S. security? I can understand if you asked how we ended up in Iraq, but Afghanistan was the huge no brainer, everyone backed up that war, there were no lies around that, we went right in knowing we were looking for Osama Bin Laden and we were also trying to overthrow the Talliban so they'd no longer be a threat to national security.

Buck and Bob -

My appologies.

Buck - I did not mean to trivialize their deaths. It did sound to me, though, like this example was given as the typical "why the US in Iraq is so bad" argument, and it was this perceived attitude I was attempting to address.

Hope that helps.

It's ok, I understand fully, some people still think we should just pull out not fully realizing what that would mean for the people of Iraq.

[O'Dannyboy]

... You're confused as to why the U.S. invaded the country that was run by the army of the person who attacked us on September 11th? You're asking why Osama Bin Laden and his warlords are a threat to U.S. security? I can understand if you asked how we ended up in Iraq, but Afghanistan was the huge no brainer, everyone backed up that war, there were no lies around that, we went right in knowing we were looking for Osama Bin Laden and we were also trying to overthrow the Talliban so they'd no longer be a threat to national security.

Doh! I did forget about that. They still haven't caught Osama and arent likely to. He will likely die of old age or illness before they catch him. I guess thats why I wonder why we are still there. The national security of Afghanistan is not really our concern is it? Especially when they are discussing re-implementing laws that were imposed by the Talliban which we are there to protect them from? wheres the sense in that? I can understand continuing to hunt for Osama Bin'ladin but I think the Afghan forces have had plenty of time to pull themselves together.

[billie]

just a question-will the iraqis ever "stand up for themselves" if we're always there to do it for them? i don't know enough to be able to say. i wonder.....

[billie]

just a question-will the iraqis ever "stand up for themselves" if we're always there to do it for them? i don't know enough to be able to say. i wonder.....

[buckthesystem]

... You're confused as to why the U.S. invaded the country that was run by the army of the person who attacked us on September 11th? You're asking why Osama Bin Laden and his warlords are a threat to U.S. security? I can understand if you asked how we ended up in Iraq, but Afghanistan was the huge no brainer, everyone backed up that war, there were no lies around that, we went right in knowing we were looking for Osama Bin Laden and we were also trying to overthrow the Talliban so they'd no longer be a threat to national security.

Doh! I did forget about that. They still haven't caught Osama and arent likely to. He will likely die of old age or illness before they catch him. I guess thats why I wonder why we are still there. The national security of Afghanistan is not really our concern is it? Especially when they are discussing re-implementing laws that were imposed by the Talliban which we are there to protect them from? wheres the sense in that? I can understand continuing to hunt for Osama Bin'ladin but I think the Afghan forces have had plenty of time to pull themselves together.

Actually I remember distinctly shortly after "9.11" reading and hearing on the news that Osama Bin Laden was suffering from a kidney disorder and couldn't survive without regular medical treatment.

He allegedly went to another country (sorry can't remember which one, although I have an idea it was Russia) to be treated and there was even a rumour at the time of him going to the US for treatment and then just leaving the country.

Whether or not reports or sightings of him travelling were correct is largely irrlelevant (although it would support the theory that "catching Osama" was a "red herring"). Anyway, it would seem that he was quite ill about five years ago, so there is very little chance of him being still alive anywhere.

What ever happened to that story? And how come everyone seems to believe that Osama is some sort of super man who continues to evade capture by America? I have got kind of cynical about this and think we have "straw man Osama".

However, I have got to agree with what O'Dannyboy is saying about the Taliban. If Sar'iah law is to be re-introduced, what was the point of America even being there?