Women in the Church today

[Nero's Fiddle]

Okay, mabye no one noticed this, so I will post the point again.

The only authority held at worthy is in the form of admins, mods, etc. These are NOT spiritual authorities, so are not really part of the discussion about woman Pastors in the first place.

I re-submit my example. If your church had three janitors or three cooks for meals, and the "head" janitor or cook was a female and one of the others was a male, this would NOT violate Paul's directions! However, if your Pastor was a woman, it would directly violate them.

There is a difference, and it is the same difference we have here at worthy. Disregarding admins, mods, etc, we are Christians coming together to discuss Christ on an even playing field, which several Scriptural examples show to be completely fine, and indeed right.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/not2obey.html

All I see here is more gymnastics, finding loopholes to ignore the plain sense meaning of Scripture in order to meet the criteria of pre-formed opinion.

If you truly want the Bible to say something, we have many example to show that it is possible to twist it to make it say what you desire. That does not change the actual meaning of Scripture, and in this case I believe the Scriptural principle is clear.

[Smalcald]

We all divide things up a little differently. We (my congregation) hold that there are two ways to look at the Christian Church, the visible Church and the universal true Church of Christ.

The visible church is what I think you guys are calling the local church, it does the things worm is talking about. The universal church is the eternal church of all true believers in Christ; it knows no bounds on time or place or or life. The visible church will contain those who are members of the universal church, but not all in the visible church are true believers and are part of the universal church. However all of those in the universal church will seek (they may not always find) but they will yearn to be part of the visible church and to show their love for the brethren.

So, what is worthy? I don't have a good answer. I don't think it is a visible church, however it does preach the Gospel and claim Christ, it does include members who are part of the universal church, and I think it does do evangelization. I see it as an arm of evangelism for Christians in cyberspace, but I don't see it as a visible church in the traditional sense. But we need a presence in cyberspace and this is one of those places.

I think it does a good job.

So where did this topic come up? I think it came up because if it is a church do we then have a pastor who is a women and how could that be if we claim that we don't believe in that office being for women? Well I certainly believe that women are called to be evangelists, and in that role I would honor all of the workings of Worthy Board if worthy board was 100% female operated and run (I don't know if it is or not). But the office of pastor cannot exist in cyberspace alone, the office of Pastor must baptize, which means physically doing it; it must administer the Lord's Supper, which must happen physically. So that office simply does not exist here, and beyond that membership and communion with a group of Christians means 100% agreement on doctrine, this must be or should be present to commune together in the Lord's Supper, we don't have that here and never will, but that is a good thing for the purpose worthy serves.

[Floatingaxe]

Where does it say that a pastor is the only one who can administer baptism?

[firehill]

It is incorrect to say that Jesus never used women.

Mary.... he told her to go tell the disciples that he had risen. When the men did not believe without seeing.... she did and obeyed Jesus. She never denied him like Peter did.

The woman at the well... "go tell" your husband... and the whole town... and many were saved because of her.

Paul used women in the ministry who worked along side him "labouring in the Lord" and dying for the faith as he did. Their names are in Romans 16. There were women apostles. Phoebe was a minister... not just a deaconness.

Priscilla was a pastor. She was so good at her doctrine that she had to correct Apollos who was preaching incorrect.

God uses women... Always has..... what about Deborah .. the judge of all Israel... heard from God... a prophet... lead the war in which they won. The men were too chicken. Deborah had faith where others did not. You can argue she was not a pastor... well, the church did not exist then either.... however, to lead over all Israel, hear from God, pass on this word is what pastors do.

Isaiah married a woman prophet.

Anna was a prophetess who recognized who Jesus was.

etc etc

etc etc

1. John wrote to a female pastor in 2 John.

2. "..., the very fact that the biblical texts present women as legitimate prophets creates a prima facie argument that they were as important as apostles (and therefore

[Smalcald]

Paul personally appointed overseers, the spiritual leaders of a congregation. Paul also spoke specifically about their requirements, who they should be and what they should do, this is basic. It is very clear, you have to really twist and infer to come up with anything else, but we have clear direction on who should hold these roles and it cannot be refuted. Also we have clear direction that the Christian Church must have these roles, I mean Paul took the time to talk about who they should be, the basic job requirements.

Sure you can just tear down any concept of a Christian congregation and go play at home, but it would have nothing to do with the biblical churches shown in the New Testament who were a close fellowship of believers, who owned things in common, who met for the Lord's Supper and Baptized and instructed and spread the Word of God. Do the leaders we are called to appoint have to administer these things, no it is not an absolute, but they are the spiritual leaders they would decide those details. We can make up pretty much anything we want, including who can be a pastor, but it won't have anything to do with what scripture says when asked this VERY question.

Of course Christ used women, and women as I have repeatedly stated have many roles in the Church and are TOTALLY equal to men spiritually and in every other way as human beings. Yes they are prophets, administrators, evangelists, the list goes on. But we have the biblical requirements specifically shown for who should hold the role of Pastor, I guess I don't understand why there is any debate about it?

If you want to see what happens when you start playing political games with scripture including ordaining women because of secular feminist political pressure, simply look at the Episcopal Church USA and what has happened to that once wonderful group of believers.

[Floatingaxe]

Secular feminist political pressure? I think not. There is nothing secular about it. In fact, the whole notion that masculists are believing is secular.

[Ovedya]

Without addressing your other issues, I will take that as your acknowledgement that Worthy Boards is not a church regardless of its other merits.

sw

The only acknowledgement I made was that Worthy is not a local expression of the church. It is however very much an expression of the universal aspect of the church. As such, it is the church.

Amen, just like groups like the Navigators, Intervarsity etc are not expressions of the local church, but are arms of the church universal

Then you believe that Worthy boards and other para-church organzations are no different from the local church? I think overdya is playing word games but you usually seem more direct.

sw

I did not say that. Both have different functions, but are part of the same universal body.

Not sure what that means exactly but suffice it to say, worthy boards is not a church and apparently no one is saying that it is from what I can discern.

sw

Wothy is an expression of the church universal. It has a different role in the kingdom than a local church. But it is still a part of the universal church of all believers. I think your issue is that you are viewing the church in an institutional way rather than the organic view held by the NT writers. Or maybe its that you dont understand the universal body and so have divorced the local expression of that body from its context

Exactly

[Ovedya]

I think the visible church is real and has certain characteristics. Luther said the marks of a true church are that it properly preaches the gospel and administers the sacraments. Calvin added church discipline as a third mark. I think both of those are biblically reasonable. Worthy board really exhibits none of those and is not a church. It is a gathering of those who are both in the church and out. There are both unbelievers and those who have rejected Christ's church here as part of a bad anti church movement. This is not a criticism of worthy board in any way. But it is not a church.

sw

I personally prefer the Bible over Luther and Calvin.

But that's just me.

[Nero's Fiddle]

Hold everything!

In discussing whether worthy can be called a church or not, the plain sense meaning of Scripture is being considered!

Shouldn't someday bring in some strange cultural or liguistic gymnastic arrangement that makes passages say the opposite of what they say?

(Please don't take this too seriously... it is just a joke. )

[Smalcald]

I personally prefer the Bible over Luther and Calvin.

Me to Ovedya!

Which is why I agree with worm, Luther, and Calvin.

But come on, if you can't hug someone or lay hands on someone, or hold hands with someone, or pray as one, you don't have a visible church. Baptism takes a human touch, communion means to eat together as one, to be as one with Christ. The eternal universal Christian Church is present among believers on worthy who have true faith.

Now worthy is indeed a tool of evangelism and I support it. I don't agree with many that post here on some points of doctrine, in fact there are many differing points of view here on doctrine, which is a great thing. I think Christians need more of this kind of discussion, it helps us and brings us together on the core things we indeed do agree on. But a congregation cannot have that diversity of belief it must be in unity of belief and doctrine.

I do think and firmly believe that there are many here who are part of the true eternal universal church, and I do believe Christ does indeed use Worthy!