Women in the Church today

[firehill]

Can you show documentation for these assertations?

ACTS 19:23-41

About that time there arose a great disturbance about the Way. A silversmith named Demetrius, who made silver shrines of ARTEMIS, brought in no little business for the skilled workers there. He called them together, along with the workers in related trades, and said, 'You know, my friends that we receive a good income from this business. And you see and hear how this fellow Paul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in EPHESUS and in practically the whole province of Asia. He says that gods made by human hands are no gods at all. There is danger not only that our trade will lose its good name, but also that THE TEMPLE OF THE GREAT GODDESS ARTEMIS will be discredited; and the GODDESS HERSELF, WHO IS WORSHIPED THROUGHOUT the province of Asia and THE WORLD, will be robbed of her DIVINE majesty.' When they heard this, they were furious and began shouting: 'Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!'... ACTS 19:23-28

http://www.amazonation.com/artemisI.html

"Today, Artemis is still seen, especially in the place she started from, ancient Greece and Anatolia, now Greece, Turkey, and the Aegean islands. On Zakynthos...Artemis was also connected with sex, reproduction, and birth, three of the most instinctual experiences humans have..."

A simple search on Yahoo alone brings up over 1,000 websites about the goddess.

1 Timothy 1:3-5

"As I urge you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in EPHESUS so that you may command persons not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies."

ACTS 19:35

"The city clerk quited the crowed and said: 'People of Ephesus, doesn't all the WORLD know that the city of Ephesus is the gaurdian of the temple of the great Artemis?

The internet world is replete with information about her.

[firehill]

Can you show documentation for these assertations?

ACTS 19:23-41

About that time there arose a great disturbance about the Way. A silversmith named Demetrius, who made silver shrines of ARTEMIS, brought in no little business for the skilled workers there. He called them together, along with the workers in related trades, and said, 'You know, my friends that we receive a good income from this business. And you see and hear how this fellow Paul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in EPHESUS and in practically the whole province of Asia. He says that gods made by human hands are no gods at all. There is danger not only that our trade will lose its good name, but also that THE TEMPLE OF THE GREAT GODDESS ARTEMIS will be discredited; and the GODDESS HERSELF, WHO IS WORSHIPED THROUGHOUT the province of Asia and THE WORLD, will be robbed of her DIVINE majesty.' When they heard this, they were furious and began shouting: 'Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!'... ACTS 19:23-28

http://www.amazonation.com/artemisI.html

"Today, Artemis is still seen, especially in the place she started from, ancient Greece and Anatolia, now Greece, Turkey, and the Aegean islands. On Zakynthos...Artemis was also connected with sex, reproduction, and birth, three of the most instinctual experiences humans have..."

A simple search on Yahoo alone brings up over 1,000 websites about the goddess.

1 Timothy 1:3-5

"As I urge you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in EPHESUS so that you may command persons not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies."

ACTS 19:35

"The city clerk quited the crowed and said: 'People of Ephesus, doesn't all the WORLD know that the city of Ephesus is the gaurdian of the temple of the great Artemis?

The internet world is replete with information about her.

[IslandRose]

I know about Artemis. I mean the rest of it. When I google it, the only link that comes up is that church of God website you posted, but that site won't even come up. So where is the documentation for all of that?

[firehill]

I am a woman..and the order is clear..God, man, woman..in that order.

The order in Corinthians is not written as God, man, woman, but rather chronologicaly, Christ as source of man, man as source of woman, and then God as source of Christ since Adam was created, then Eve, then the word came in the flesh. It is noteworthy that no such principle of hierarchal order as God, man, woman is ever written in the Bible.

[Giaour]

Gen 3

16. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

[Nero's Fiddle]

There is a lot here, but I am going to reply first to the assetion early on that because pastoring is a spiritual gift women should be permitted to be pastors.

This is a strange conclusion.

To pastor literally means to shepherd. If a woman had a gift for this, she could use it in working to shepherd her children, others' children, or even other women.

The exercise of a spiritual gift certainly does not necessitate the holding of an office. Must everyone with a gift for evangelism be a travelling evangelist to be useful for Christ?

The point is, what is at question here is the office that we today call Pastor, which includes oversight of the local church, etc.

Before you attempt to argue that there is no such position, please consider that you have argued at length that Phoebe held it.

[apothanein kerdos]

If Paul meant that women were to be silent, then why do women sing, pray, prophesy? If Paul meant that, then he went against even his own edict in 1 Corinthians 11, telling women to prophesy and pray! Prophesying is teaching, correcting and encouraging! This is a public ministry and God uses our voices to do it!

Paul was speaking to the church there in Corinth, and what he was advising was not absolute--it was relative, just like where he said in Corinthians 11 that men should not have long hair...that is a relativism. The point he was making about women being quiet was that there was unruliness going on in church services, where women, following the law, were asking their husbands in public, during services what the teachers were saying. Women were not allowed to sit with their husbands and so had to loudly put forth their questions from a mezzanine area above! Such a cacophony of sound they had to put up with! Paul was asking for order, nothing more. Women were to be quiet and not be disruptive. This has been erroneously extrapolated into a "law" and become a major hurdle for the Holy Spirit to overcome to this day. He gets the job done, but not without the opposition of legalistic views like this we are discussing now.

I have heard this explanation over and over but I have never heard where it comes from. How do you know that that was the reason Paul made that statement? Is there a history written of this somewhere that I have missed?

No

It's essentially rhetoric. I dabbled a bit in this debate, but the same arguments are being brought forth (though 2thePoint was a new form of an old argument). It still boils down to that no one is really bringing up solid Biblical proof for their belief...attach a false idea to something then attack that idea. We love to be individuals in America, land of the free and equal. Unfortunately, the Bible doesn't fit this idea. Because of the fall we are not always individuals, we are not always equal, and we are not always free. Pastors have authority because we humans need authority over us to control us and this has been placed in the hands of men. This was done because Even ate the fruit first (again, can anyone prove that Paul meant something else when he said this?). Christ has come to restore this world, yes, but that doesn't mean we're free from the effects of the fall. Women still have childbirth pains, men still toil with the ground, we still sin, we still die, we still get sick...it doesn't make any sense that the curse of the fall would stay on us full fledged with exception to women having less authority than men.

So yeah, answer to your question is no, there is no historical evidence.

[apothanein kerdos]

The word used for servant in the scriptural passage of Romans 16:1 is "diakonos" in Greek. This word is used everywhere in the NT to designate the office of "minister".

No it's not. It's aways used as a servant. In fact, it would make no sense to be used as a term for authority considering it's the same word for "servant/slave" in the Greek. It is translated as "minister" but this is under the King James idea of a minister being someone who merely follows out the command of another. The word was originally used in English to describe someone who followed orders. It then took on the idea of authority when pastors and priests began to call themselves "ministers" (servants) out of piety...in other words, "I am not your leader, I am your servant." They did a diservice in keeping this title and the authority, because we now think of a minister as someone who has authority. Yet, when this was translated, a "minister" was someone who was a servant.

There was no bias in transcription at all. Likewise, those with authority are also given other titles, not just that of servant. This is to indicate that though they serve, they serve with authority and have authority on certain matters. Phoebe, who was a servant (deacon), did not have authority (or the text would have indicated as such).

You should stop relying on websites that promote this stuff for you, you just might run into someone who speaks Greek.

No way! I do not read websites. I read well-versed authors, men of God and spirit-filled. I believe what I wrote about the translation of the word, "diakonos", and I stand on it. Paul referred to Phoebe as a minister or pastor, and that is precisely what he meant. Phoebe is only one of many women who served as pastors on NT times. I used her as a prime example of how even the early translators had a bias and infused it into their work.

Believe it all you want, it doesn't change the facts of the situation with clearly show you are wrong.

[Floatingaxe]

There is a lot here, but I am going to reply first to the assetion early on that because pastoring is a spiritual gift women should be permitted to be pastors.

This is a strange conclusion.

To pastor literally means to shepherd. If a woman had a gift for this, she could use it in working to shepherd her children, others' children, or even other women.

The exercise of a spiritual gift certainly does not necessitate the holding of an office. Must everyone with a gift for evangelism be a travelling evangelist to be useful for Christ?

The point is, what is at question here is the office that we today call Pastor, which includes oversight of the local church, etc.

Before you attempt to argue that there is no such position, please consider that you have argued at length that Phoebe held it.

Absolutely, we are all able to pastor outside of the "office" of pastor, but there is such an office, and I do believe that women may also hold it. Yes, Phoebe held the office of servant/leader, namely pastor.

[firehill]

It still boils down to that no one is really bringing up solid Biblical proof for their belief...Pastors have authority because we humans need authority over us to control us and this has been placed in the hands of men. This was done because Even ate the fruit first (again, can anyone prove that Paul meant something else when he said this?)...

What can be proven is that Paul meant something else since he simply did not say what you did, hence 'because Even ate the fruit first.' It just is not written.

It does seem though that your ideology of male hegemony boils down to, '...we humans need authority over us to control us...'

Pastoring is sheparding not controling, and Jesus is The Shepard. The shepard is not an authoritarian who controls those who follow him and nor did he 2000 years ago. His spirit, the Holy Spirit can be quenched since it does not control the christian either. He watched over and sheparded verses controled his flock. Jesus preached that those of his in authority are not to lord it over others.