Women in the Church today

[Nero's Fiddle]

Jesus preached that those of his in authority are not to lord it over others.

Remember, that was my keyword. The authority is not to be "lorded over" others, but it is to be employed as God directs. You argued my points by claiming that they were moot because Pastors had no specific authority.

Absolutely, we are all able to pastor outside of the "office" of pastor, but there is such an office, and I do believe that women may also hold it. Yes, Phoebe held the office of servant/leader, namely pastor.

I was replying to arguments against my original posts, in which I briefly explained my reasons for believing women should not hold the office of pastor. These were the only real refutations attempted, so I was answering them.

[Ovedya]

Sorry, I haven't been around muich lately. Has someone brought up the two verses from Timothy and Corinthians yet? If Paul wrote that he does not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man (Take note - that's two things, not just one), don't you think that he's speaking as the oracle of God?

[Nero's Fiddle]

Sorry, I haven't been around muich lately. Has someone brought up the two verses from Timothy and Corinthians yet? If Paul wrote that he does not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man (Take note - that's two things, not just one), don't you think that he's speaking as the oracle of God?

Yes, they've been brought up. And yes, the Word of God is the Word of God!

From what I can tell, the problem here seems to be that those espousing the feministic viewpoint are convinced that those Scriptures aren't saying what they seem... rather clearly... to be saying.

They've posted material that make them out to say something else.

Those are wonderful, relevant Scriptures, but they don't seem to me to have been enough to convince the proponents of women pastors.

(I had the same problem once with a classmate who became a Wiccan (though I do not mean to associate the posters here with pagans by any means!).

I tried to show her Bible passages that clearly taught against witchcraft, but she went through gymnastics to make each mean something else. She actually cited "sources" stating that the word "witch" had been substituted for "userer" by King James, because he was paranoid about witches!

Anyway, the point is that the only tool we have to promote correct doctrine is Scripture, and if a person is so convinced of a position that Scripture is merely an obstacle to explain away so that they can support that position, we really cannot do much.)

[firehill]

A verse that deals more directly with woman pastors is 1 Timothy 2:12, also written by Paul:

"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

The question at issue here is preaching, because the position of preacher is a certain type of authority and responsibilty the Bible says women should not occupy.

Jesus preached that those of his in authority are not to lord it over others.

Remember, that was my keyword. The authority is not to be "lorded over" others, but it is to be employed as God directs. You argued my points by claiming that they were moot because Pastors had no specific authority.

How can it be that 1 Tim 2:12 deals more directly with 'woman pastors' when the classification 'woman pastors' does not even exist in the verse?

A person can be a preacher while not a pastor.

It is not Written, 'women should not occupy...'

'You argued my points by claiming that they were moot because Pastors had no specific authority.' No such claim is written in my post made in response to yours. Such is your interpretation and seemingly because of your circular reasoning.

BTW, the position of 'pastor' is not an 'office' biblicaly speaking.

Any kind of spiritual authority is only given by God, for example, Jesus "gave" 72 others (specification is not 'males' but 'others') to overcome all the power of the enemy. Luke 10:1 & 18

Man ordained pastoral authority is not the same thing as God given or ordained pastoral authority.

I hoped I cleared some issues up.

[firehill]

From what I can tell, the problem here seems to be that those espousing the feministic viewpoint are convinced that those Scriptures aren't saying what they seem... rather clearly... to be saying.

Exactly, what is 'clear' about what a verse or text only 'seems' to say?

I had to ask for sport.

[Smalcald]

I would look more to the verses, which directly describe the conditions and requirements for deacons, elders and bishops in a Christian congregation. I think the authority versus above can be looked at in a number of ways. But if we want to look at who should hold the office of pastor, deacon or elder we have the direct requirements given in scripture.

They are relatively direct.

[Guest jckduboise]

There was absolutely a chronological order in God's creation. In Paul's writing of 1 Corinthians 11:3, the word "kephale" meaning head is also the same word used for "origin, source". In other words, Christ is the origin/ source for every man; The man is the origin/source for the woman; God is the origin/source for Christ. There was no argument about Paul's discussion here, because the churches then did have women pastors, and it was acceptable then, as it should be now.

Man and woman are equal partners, created in the image of God. Even God Himself is three equal persons...no hierarchy there. Hierarchy is a man-made idea. Nowhere is the absolute principle of equality contradicted in scripture. Men are equal to women, all races are equal, all ethnicities, all levels of prosperity before God Almighty.

I do not remember anything that Paul said regarding women leading the churches being acceptable. Please reveal where you have read these words so that I might read them and make sure that the message is not being misinterpreted..scarey world these days never know when satan is using the word of God to deceive..oh, wait a minute! he does that all the time.....

[firehill]

...Christ has come to restore this world, yes, but that doesn't mean we're free from the effects of the fall. Women still have childbirth pains, men still toil with the ground, we still sin, we still die, we still get sick...it doesn't make any sense that the curse of the fall would stay on us full fledged with exception to women having less authority than men.

I forgot to comment on the above statements of yours. The one I single out is, '...it doesn't make any sense that the curse of the fall would stay on us full fledged with exception to women having less authority than men.'

God himself directly spoke what the very effects of the fall would be in Genesis. What he did not speak was that women would have less authority than men, remember? Also, above in your second statement you left out a very telling effect of the fall which is the 'desire' of the woman for her husband and his 'rule' over her. It is not written that an effect of the fall would be that woman would have less authority than man. Such perception is just that and an interpretation. There is a difference between the ideas of 'being ruled over' by fallen nature and 'having less authority' in the body.

Also, since in marital oneness, the ultimate relationship of male/female husband rulership over wife is a result of the fall then so is male hegemony a result of the fall because it does not even require a degree of relationship.

[Floatingaxe]

...Christ has come to restore this world, yes, but that doesn't mean we're free from the effects of the fall. Women still have childbirth pains, men still toil with the ground, we still sin, we still die, we still get sick...it doesn't make any sense that the curse of the fall would stay on us full fledged with exception to women having less authority than men.

I forgot to comment on the above statements of yours. The one I single out is, '...it doesn't make any sense that the curse of the fall would stay on us full fledged with exception to women having less authority than men.'

God himself directly spoke what the very effects of the fall would be in Genesis. What he did not speak was that women would have less authority than men, remember? Also, above in your second statement you left out a very telling effect of the fall which is the 'desire' of the woman for her husband and his 'rule' over her. It is not written that an effect of the fall would be that woman would have less authority than man. Such perception is just that and an interpretation. There is a difference between the ideas of 'being ruled over' by fallen nature and 'having less authority' in the body.

Also, since in marital oneness, the ultimate relationship of male/female husband rulership over wife is a result of the fall then so is male hegemony a result of the fall because it does not even require a degree of relationship.

This is so right. God never cursed man, or woman--He cursed the ground and the serpent only.

[Floatingaxe]

This isn't some radical feminist movement we are talking about, nor is it deception on my part---in fact, the lack or denial of women in ministry is a result of a culture problem, that isn't much different than the male-dominated Jewish culture that Jesus found. He came to disrupt that. It is the church that is robbing women of the call of God on their lives.