What goes around . . .

[nebula]

Well, I know Christians believe this.

But I was wondering what non-Christians believe about this.

[billie]

i believe what goes around comes around because God holds us accountable for our bad decisions, sins,etc....He is desiring to forgive us always, but sometimes there are still consequences for our transgressions to deal with. karma is apagan idea from hinduism. when people say fate i just substitute God in my mind because He's the one who's planning everyone's fate

[Nero's Fiddle]

The OP is too generic

If I'm understanding correctly, Nebula is simply trying to decipher how a non-Christian could believe in any sort of tendancy for one to "get back what they give out".

If you believe morality is an artificial human construct in the first place, then your answer to her question would be that there is no such tendancy outside of human interference because there is no system of morality outside of human constructs.

However, there are many people who claim not to believe in the Christian God (or, in many cases, any god) who still carry some idea of "reaping what you sow", or, more commonly, karma. She wants to know how a person who believes in no God can still believe in such a function.

That's her question, if I'm not mistaken.

[nebula]

NF - yes, that is exactly what I am asking. Thank-you!

LK, I'm not trying to pull any curve balls - I truly, truly just want to understand.

'K?

[nebula]

LK -

So, you do not believe "what goes around comes around" is not a valid expression? That's fine - I just want to be sure.

**

Is theft wrong because God determined it is wrong or is it just inherently wrong? In other words, does

morality depend on God or is it a standard aparte from Him? In other words, would theft be moral if God said so

or would it be immoral, wrong, despicable etc. no matter what?

I don't see how anyone can believe in God and believe otherwise. YHWH is just as much the author of moral laws as He is of physical and natural laws.

***

I hope to hear the perspective of other non-Christians.

[sylvan3]

LK -

So, you do not believe "what goes around comes around" is not a valid expression? That's fine - I just want to be sure.

**

Is theft wrong because God determined it is wrong or is it just inherently wrong? In other words, does

morality depend on God or is it a standard aparte from Him? In other words, would theft be moral if God said so

or would it be immoral, wrong, despicable etc. no matter what?

I don't see how anyone can believe in God and believe otherwise. YHWH is just as much the author of moral laws as He is of physical and natural laws.

***

I hope to hear the perspective of other non-Christians.

That means God could have made murder a moral act. It is within his power. Are you fine with that?

Doesn't God order other humans to murder in the OT? It was OK then.

[nebula]

That means God could have made murder a moral act. It is within his power. Are you fine with that?

I am reminded of a skit by Bill Cosby, where he tries to understand why his kids are prone to disobedience, and when confronted about it, asking why they disobeyed, they would reply, "I don't know!"

He said the only answer he could find was in the story of Adam and Eve. He retells the story with his own twist:

God: Adam, did I tell you not to eat the fruit of the tree?

Adam: Uh-huh.

God: So why did you eat it?

Adam: I don't know!

It comes out better when he says it.

So, if you read further, you notice that when the Lord God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, it was when He was angry at them.

In other words, children were given to them to teach them a lesson on what it is like to be disobeyed.

Again, the way Bill Cosby expressed it was so much better than I could attempt to re-tell it.

LK -

I didn't start this thread to use it as yet another thread to argue the existance/non-existance of God. I truly just wanted to know your and other non-Christians thoughts on the expression "What goes around comes around"/karma/etc.

But to answer your question:

If YHWH is the Lord God, Creator of the heavens and the earth and you and me, would my opinion on whatever moral laws He has given to man make any difference to whether or not He existed of if I should believe in Him?

[nebula]

Doesn't God order other humans to murder in the OT? It was OK then.

Sylvan -

I would like to hear your thoughts on the question I posted in the OP. I truly did not want to make another fist-fight out of this thread.

But to answer your question: the Hebrew word used in the 10 commandments for "You shall not murder is a different word, with a different connotation, than the word used when the Lord told the Israelites to slay their enemies and to put to death those who raped, murdered, etc.

**

I do not mean to be disrespectful, but I have no interest in arguing these points. I truly do just want to hear your thoughts on "What goes around comes around" - what makes it so?

Would you be so kind as to re-read my OP and answer accordingly?

Thank-you!

[nebula]

LK -

THE LIVER IS EVIL AND MUST BE PUNISHED!!

If you mean liver as food, then I completely agree with you!

If however you mean liver as functioning in the body, I could not disagree with you more.

Need I pull out my Anatomy & Physiology textbook and share with you all the many, many useful and beneficial function the liver performs to keep you alive and well?

First of all, I thought your [q]uestion was a good strating point to discuss about whether it's true that morality comes from God. If you don't want to, I won't insist.

Well, from my perspective, it is rather silly for someone who does not believe in the existance of God to argue about whether or not God authored morality.

Second, yes it makes a difference. If it turned out that morality coming from anyone that isn't human is an absurdity, then it would matter a lot. So, as an atheist who's posting in a forum called "defending the faith" I ask: "Could God have decreed that murder is moral? Why/Why not?" You're not forced to answer, but I don't think there's anything that prevents me from asking.

If you truly desire to hear my answer to this question, if you start another thread asking this question I promise to answer there.

I truly would rather this thread be kept on answering the question of "What goes around comes around" as I asked in the OP.

[nebula]

Did the joke go over your head? It invites people to drink a lot of alcohol

I figured it was a joke

Didn't realize it was an alcohol promotion, though.

I guess if you had the power to author the universe, getting drunk would be rewarded and staying sober would be punished, huh?

Well, from my perspective, it is rather silly for someone who does not believe in the existance of God to argue about whether or not God authored morality.

Actually, it's the other way around. I don't know if this is your case, but many believers say the existence of morality is evidence for the existence of a god.

I am aware that humans have managed to create their own definitions of morality. I didn't want to go into that debate.

I have heard many people use the phrase "What goes around comes around" as a principle outside of human law or intervention.

I wanted to understand how non-Christians could explain the "force" (for lack of a better word) behind this principle.

For some time now I have been thinking that there are better explanations for its existence.

Well that would be interesting to hear.

By showing that there's no real connection between morality and a god I help my position.

And again, I really did not want this thread to turn into yet another "why there is/is not a God." We have enough of those going on, don't you think?