when we enter the kingdom

[Nero's Fiddle]

I don't mean to be harsh, PRC, but it seems as though you are saying that the plain sense reading of a passage is incorrect, but not providing any other sensible way to understand it.

Rather than simply telling us that Paul is not equating being absent from the body and being present with the Lord, please tell us what you think this verse means and why, so that we can respond to you rather than simply stating and restating something with which you disagree.

KJV:

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

[Floatingaxe]

the bible says "to be absent from the body is to be present with the father". the audience there wre believers. If you want exactly where that is you'll have to wait til i can find the verse

You have miss quoted the BIble. it says to be absent from the body AND to be present witht he father. and i no way does this say you go to heaven immediatly after death and you have you taken the verse out of context

I fail to see the difference an "and" makes!

[Floatingaxe]

Actually, prcfighter, you are mistaken about this passage: 2 Corinthians 5:6-8...

"So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. That is why we live by believing and not by seeing. Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord."

Please note that the first part is written in such a way that the last part is a parallel. Just as we are not at home with the Lord WHILE we are living in our physical bodies, we are confident that once outside of our mortality, and WHILE outside of it, we are with the Lord. It so stands to reason! It is such an easy assumption that you are missing it completely for some strange reason---could it be an unholy indoctrination that has seized you?

I trust that you will give this some real consideration..open up your mind and heart to truth.

Blessings.

[gekko]

floatingaxe.

please read the following. which i posted earlier on. i will rephrase something.

here's the scripture:

"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: For we walk by faith, not by sight: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

paul in the first verse there is simply saying that while we are mortal - we are not in the presence of the Lord.

paul in the second verse there is simply saying that he would rather get out of this mortal state and be in the presence of the Lord.

no where in that portion of scripture does it say that right when you die you go to be with the Lord.

no where in that scripture does it say that right when you die that you dont go to be with the Lord.

[gekko]

another thing we need to realize is the when the NT speaks of the "Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of Heaven" it is not talking about Heaven.

the kingdom is in us Jesus said.

the kingdom is a spiritual realm where spiritual warfare goes on. thats how scripture lays it out.

so what we christians call "Heaven" and the "kingdom of heaven" are different. where the Lord resides and "kingdom of God" is different.

---

[RND]

here's the scripture:

"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: For we walk by faith, not by sight: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

no where in that portion of scripture does it say that right when you die you go to be with the Lord.

no where in that scripture does it say that right when you die that you dont go to be with the Lord.

paul is simply saying that while we are mortal - we are not in the presence of the Lord.

paul is also simply saying that he would rather get out of this mortal state and be in the presence of the Lord.

Very good!

[RND]

Man recieved the breath of life, and became a 'living soul.' Genesis 2:7

Without the breath of life man is a 'dead soul.' Ecclesiastes 12:7

The soul that sins, it shall die. Isiah 18:4

The only way to obtain 'eternal life' is through Jesus Christ. John 3:16

When a lightbulb in your lamp burns out, was it because there was no more electricity coming into the house, or simply because the lightbulb burned out?

So, do you replace the entire electrical system or just a lightbulb?

That is the best and most simplistic view of death you will ever be able to understand.

God makes lightbulbs work. Especially the burned out ones. On the last day!

God Bless the lightbulbs!

[EricH]

another thing we need to realize is the when the NT speaks of the "Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of Heaven" it is not talking about Heaven.

the kingdom is in us Jesus said.

the kingdom is a spiritual realm where spiritual warfare goes on. thats how scripture lays it out.

so what we christians call "Heaven" and the "kingdom of heaven" are different. where the Lord resides and "kingdom of God" is different.

---

The context of the passage are Paul's thoughts regarding death. Paul prefers to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. That indicates that in his mind that is a possibility. It would be rediculous for him to state that it would be better for him to do something that is not possible (and in fact prefer it to life)

In addition we have Luke 23:43 in which Jesus promised the thief that he would be with Him in paradise.

We also have the writer of Hebrews stating that when Christians worship they enter into not only God's presence, but into the presence of the spirits of righteous men who have been made perfect.

We have Phil. 1:23 when Paul states his desire once again to depart and be with Christ.

We have Revelation 6:9-11 and 7:9-10 where spirits of those who have died are before the throne

Hebrews 12:1 refers to the OT saints who have died as witnesses.

Your exegesis of the passage does not do justice to it, or the numerous other passages that speak to this issue

[Floatingaxe]

here's the scripture:

"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: For we walk by faith, not by sight: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

no where in that portion of scripture does it say that right when you die you go to be with the Lord.

no where in that scripture does it say that right when you die that you dont go to be with the Lord.

paul is simply saying that while we are mortal - we are not in the presence of the Lord.

paul is also simply saying that he would rather get out of this mortal state and be in the presence of the Lord.

Very good!

You may consider this very good, but it is very erroneous. Not Christian doctrine in the least.

[RND]

here's the scripture:

"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: For we walk by faith, not by sight: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

no where in that portion of scripture does it say that right when you die you go to be with the Lord.

no where in that scripture does it say that right when you die that you dont go to be with the Lord.

paul is simply saying that while we are mortal - we are not in the presence of the Lord.

paul is also simply saying that he would rather get out of this mortal state and be in the presence of the Lord.

Very good!

You may consider this very good, but it is very erroneous. Not Christian doctrine in the least.

And as usual, you gave us your opinion, with absolutely 'zero' scriptural references to back up your claims and change one heart.

Fact is there is a huge difference between the words is and and.

When you first quoted Paul in using 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 you said is. Many people commonly make this same mistake. I for one agree with Paul, I would rather be out of this body, in my incorruptable, spirit body, and in the presence of Jesus Christ. But as it stands, I simply have to be patient knowing that in a "twinkling of an eye" I will be, on the last day, resurrected and forever with the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

John 11:24

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Job 7:7 O remember that my life is wind: mine eye shall no more see good. 8 The eye of him that hath seen me shall see me no more: thine eyes are upon me, and I am not. 9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. 10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:

12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. 15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath. 31 Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what he hath done? 32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Dust + Breath = Living soul

The soul that sinneth it shall die. All have sinned. All will die.

The is no eternity outside of Jesus Christ.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.