Perfection, Beauty and Love

[Openly Curious]

Where would one look for perfection, beauty and love that might lead one to believe that there is a God......?

Jesus Christ.

Amen Rania,

and we beheld His glory

OC

[Arjuous]

OC

it is only morally bankrupt on your part cause you can't obtain the wealth from it cause of your own unbelief however I'm rich. I'm saying that there is a healthy fear in which is beneficial to have and possess. if ones does not want to listen to those healthy fears in ones life then go ahead and stick you hand on the burner on the stove and get yourself burned it is your choice and you can be unselfish all you want. Without a true conversion in ones life for whatever reason of no reason you will lose out with God for all must be born again. One can have true compassion towards others (in which you call religious element) and not be saved they even can have genuine love and not be saved why is this it is because death passed upon all and all have sinned against God somewhere along their way in this life and need to be forgiven. Those in this state are miserable poor and blind and haven't even begun to tap into the wealth of God's righteousness that comes to them by faith.

OC

I'm 95% certain you have no idea what 'morally bankrupt' means.

First of all I would encourage you to learn proper grammar, or, if its just the fact that your comma key is broken, then my first suggestion would be to look up the definition of a run-on sentence. Secondly, you've offerred absolutely nothing but material pulled from thin air, which you justify by assuming that Jesus is steering your actions. Thirdly, you have a considerably pious tone, "I'm rich," "stick your hand on the burner," "[you] haven't even begun to tap into the wealth of God's righteousness." It's fairly pathetic that your ignoring some fairly fundamental Christian principles of humility in order to assault those without faith. Every one of your claims is entirely baseless, and if we were to accept the premise that the Bible inerrant, I hesitate to assert that you'd be able to form a coherent defense.

[Openly Curious]

OC

it is only morally bankrupt on your part cause you can't obtain the wealth from it cause of your own unbelief however I'm rich. I'm saying that there is a healthy fear in which is beneficial to have and possess. if ones does not want to listen to those healthy fears in ones life then go ahead and stick you hand on the burner on the stove and get yourself burned it is your choice and you can be unselfish all you want. Without a true conversion in ones life for whatever reason of no reason you will lose out with God for all must be born again. One can have true compassion towards others (in which you call religious element) and not be saved they even can have genuine love and not be saved why is this it is because death passed upon all and all have sinned against God somewhere along their way in this life and need to be forgiven. Those in this state are miserable poor and blind and haven't even begun to tap into the wealth of God's righteousness that comes to them by faith.

OC

I'm 95% certain you have no idea what 'morally bankrupt' means.

oc

You could be 100% sure but it would not mean your judgment towars me would be correct.

quote Arjuous

First of all I would encourage you to learn proper grammar, or, if its just the fact that your comma key is broken, then my first suggestion would be to look up the definition of a run-on sentence.

oc

As far as my english and grammar goes you have me dead to rights there for sure. I happen to come from a very very bad past and because of things I did not get schooled properly in many different areas as english was one of those areas. I have been working at it and have greatly improved but those run-ons ar still there. I do apologize to you in this regards.

quote Aujuous

Secondly, you've offerred absolutely nothing but material pulled from thin air, which you justify by assuming that Jesus is steering your actions.

oc

Where is all your "material" at I saw nothing from you except thin air? And what may I ask that you are trying to justify to me and what is it that is "steering" your actions? For I am curious to know what is motivating you. My assumption or non assumptions about Jesus doesn't change the face of a coin because you want to flip it to the other side.

quote Aujuous

Thirdly, you have a considerably pious tone, "I'm rich," "stick your hand on the burner," "[you] haven't even begun to tap into the wealth of God's righteousness." It's fairly pathetic that your ignoring some fairly fundamental Christian principles of humility in order to assault those without faith.

oc

Then you will just have to think me as "Pious" because through Christ I am "Rich" and I have and possess the secret that can also make you rich should you want wealth and the true riches.

2 Corinthians 6:10-"As sorrowful yet always rejoicing as poor, "YET MAKING MANY "RICH" as having nothing and yet "possessing" all things."

I know one day I humbled myself in His presence and accepted Him as my Lord and Saviour and my Creator. And you may not like my style as I don't like yours but I am a bold witness not one that you would want to just put my tail between my legs and run as you take my faith from me oh no I will earnestly contend and fight the fight of faith. For your only purpose and agenda to all of your rhetoric is to take my faith from me and leave me believing in nothing. And that just want happen though I be mocked by you for having bad english skills. You see you to late I'm to far gone. And know of a God who died on a cross for me and even you in order that I could be reconciled to a loving God who created me and even know the number of hair I got on my head.

I am truly sorry you do not know of this Creator in which I speak about in my life. But you do not know me so your judgments toward me are only manifests tokens to me that I am indeed one of God's children and one day i am going to exchange that manifest token in. Well I just ain't gonna sit back and let those with no faith at all assault me and take away what I got.

quote Aujuous

Every one of your claims is entirely baseless, and if we were to accept the premise that the Bible inerrant, I hesitate to assert that you'd be able to form a coherent defense.

My claims are based on this--"On Christ the solid Rock I stand all else is sinking sand" Jesus Christ is my sure foundation. The word of God is a more "sure word" and it is not at all baseless no matter how many times you attack it as such. The laws of the universe are not baseless no matter how many times you deny them. And yes I stand 100% whole hearted sold out on these baseless things and it makes me rejoice in the face of adversity.

oc

[Arjuous]

You could be 100% sure but it would not mean your judgment towars me would be correct.

Well in this instance it's fairly clear you have no idea what is entailed by defining something as morally bankrupt.

As far as my english and grammar goes you have me dead to rights there for sure. I happen to come from a very very bad past and because of things I did not get schooled properly in many different areas as english was one of those areas. I have been working at it and have greatly improved but those run-ons ar still there. I do apologize to you in this regards.

If this admission is genuine it's I who should be apologizing. I did snap at you, which I shouldn't have done, but your demeanor has not once offerred the slightest hint that you're considering any of this. And the 'stream of consciousness' with which you constantly ramble has no real content, so I suppose I'm just searching for some answer that you haven't drawn from your minifested metaphysical alternate reality.

Where is all your "material" at I saw nothing from you except thin air?

Literally thousands of years of empirical, proven scientific data. You meanwhile recite the sermon from your last church service.

And what may I ask that you are trying to justify to me and what is it that is "steering" your actions?

My actions are steered by evidence, logic, reason, rationality, and constant re-evalutation. As for what I'm justifying? Intelligence.

For I am curious to know what is motivating you. My assumption or non assumptions about Jesus doesn't change the face of a coin because you want to flip it to the other side.

A) That's a terrible analogy and B) something is either fact or not. Evolution is fact, for instance, but flying unicorns are not. By the way there is EXACTLY the same amount of evidence for unicorns and leprachauns as there is for talking snakes, or flying people, or the boogey man; NONE!

quote Aujuous

Thirdly, you have a considerably pious tone, "I'm rich," "stick your hand on the burner," "[you] haven't even begun to tap into the wealth of God's righteousness." It's fairly pathetic that your ignoring some fairly fundamental Christian principles of humility in order to assault those without faith.

oc

Then you will just have to think me as "Pious" because through Christ I am "Rich" and I have and possess the secret that can also make you rich should you want wealth and the true riches.

Thank you for proving my point.

My claims are based on this--"On Christ the solid Rock I stand all else is sinking sand" Jesus Christ is my sure foundation.

Right, your basing every one of your claims on allegorical literature. There is no other evidence than the book. If you accept that premise, then I would encourage you to try and paint a coherent picture of the Resurrection as recounted in all of the Gospels, because you cannot factually do it.

The word of God is a more "sure word" and it is not at all baseless no matter how many times you attack it as such.

But it is, it's based entirely on a book and no other evidence. It isn't an attack, but the bible is the only 'proof' that can be offerred for the Christian Gods existence. That in itself makes it baseless, since the book cannot possibly be corroberated as being authored by God.

The laws of the universe are not baseless no matter how many times you deny them.

These 'laws of the universe' have only been proven by science, not the Bible. You can't just ad hoc scientific principles into Genesis and say 'oh thats what God meant.' Also, I would note that every law of the universe which I accept is entirely based on empirical scientific data.

[Openly Curious]

Aujuous,

"The worst moments for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has "Nobody" to thank"

Dante Gabriel Rossetti

Openly Curious

[Arjuous]

Aujuous,

"The worst moments for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has "Nobody" to thank"

Dante Gabriel Rossetti

Openly Curious

Aside from that quote having no merit, it has no relevance to the issue. Reason should be the center of our argument, yet you seem willing to completely ignore it. I'm sure you'll characteristically retort by saying I'm somehow unwilling to accept the Bible and will then refuse to answer the point, so I'll ask that you provide actual evidence.

[Openly Curious]

Aujuous,

"The worst moments for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has "Nobody" to thank"

Dante Gabriel Rossetti

Openly Curious

Aside from that quote having no merit, it has no relevance to the issue. Reason should be the center of our argument, yet you seem willing to completely ignore it. I'm sure you'll characteristically retort by saying I'm somehow unwilling to accept the Bible and will then refuse to answer the point, so I'll ask that you provide actual evidence.

Aujuous,

What reason is it for me to continue to argue with nothing? You have nothing in which I can accept or reject. If you did then I could then decide from what you have given me in hopes to persuade me of in your argument here about nothing. You haven't done this thus far.

My evidence was the very creation itself that was my something I had to offer. You have rejected it why because it was something you could accept or reject. You were given a choice based on what you heard and was offered. You had as was given something tangible. Even if you chose to reject it and retain it in your knowledge.

However on the other hand. You have brought nothing to or for me at this point and time to do so with. You are offering nothing still. You only give empty words. And I tell you that you are wasting your time presenting nothing to me. For I can have nothing without arguing with you over and about it.

Openly Curious

[Arjuous]

What reason is it for me to continue to argue with nothing? You have nothing in which I can accept or reject.

I've obviously provided both evidence and reason. And to say I have nothing for you to 'accept' or to 'reject,' implies that I have made no assetions, which as anyone can see, is false.

If you did then I could then decide from what you have given me in hopes to persuade me of in your argument here about nothing. You haven't done this thus far.

Again, I've given both reason and evidence. You've just tacitly admitted that you haven't read any of it.

My evidence was the very creation itself that was my something I had to offer.

You have no evidence of 'creation,' all you have is the fact that things exist, and that's it. Existence does not entail 'God,' nor does it prove Christianity. To say that "things exist, therefor the Bible is true" lacks a connection between existence and the bible, and therefor cannot be used as proof of Christianity

You have rejected it why because it was something you could accept or reject. You were given a choice based on what you heard and was offered.

I agree somewhat. I rejected it because I am able to accept or reject propositions. I'm able to make the choice on what I've heard and what was offered to me because of my brain, as a cognitive organ, allows me to weigh propositions. I'm not 'given' a choice, I make one because the situation presents itself.

You had as was given something tangible. Even if you chose to reject it and retain it in your knowledge.

Uhhh....what?

However on the other hand. You have brought nothing to or for me at this point and time to do so with. You are offering nothing still. You only give empty words.

Once again, that is a false assertion, I have given both evidence and reason for my belief.

And I tell you that you are wasting your time presenting nothing to me.

Aside from the fact that I've obviously presented evidence and reason, I'm still puzzled by your assertion. Look at the top of the page and read the title of this forum. "Apologetics: Defending the Faith." Your in a forum that debates the existence or nonexistence of the Christian diety, if your inept in that regard, which you've consistently shown yourself to be, then stop attempting to debate.

Edited July 27, 2006 by Arjuous

[Floatingaxe]

Arjuous...

The only thing I can commend you for is your industriousness. Post after post of such denial of a God who created such beatuty and order--for His own pleasure and ours--is mind-boggling!

NOTHING was self-created! THAT is impossible! Wrap your mere human mind around that!

[Openly Curious]

And I tell you that you are wasting your time presenting nothing to me.

Aside from the fact that I've obviously presented evidence and reason, I'm still puzzled by your assertion. Look at the top of the page and read the title of this forum. "Apologetics: Defending the Faith." Your in a forum that debates the existence or nonexistence of the Christian diety, if your inept in that regard, which you've consistently shown yourself to be, then stop attempting to debate.

Arjuous

I suggest you take your own advice because one cannot defend a faith when they don't have a faith in something which is what you are doing.

I however believe and ascertain thus far that the creation in and of itself is the evidence that a divine diety does in fact exist. Because you cannot have evidence which is the creation itself without there being a Creator. That is tangible it's touchable it's logical and it is something that causes me to have a faith in that Creator and worship Him as such.

Where is your evidence that a diety doesn't exist you have none though you repetively beat a dead horse in saying you have evidence that a divine diety does not exist. So therefore you do not have a faith in which to defend just empty words you dote about as if you do have a faith but it is not it is unbelief that you are defending to the hilt and not faith. Again you cannot have or defend a faith in nothing as you have said that you do not believe in the existence of a divine diety being the Creator of all you see around you. Which you don't even acknowledge that you yourself has a Creator. Your own existence is evidence that a divine diety or Creator has to exist or how did you get here. Oh science did it for you I see

Even a salesman brings a product to the table to get you to buy. But you have no evidence that a divine diety does not exitsts.

So again take your own advice here and stop defending a so called faith you say you have when it is not a faith at all. One cannot have a faith in nothing but they can have unbelief in nothing. So it is more appropriate for you to say defending the "UNBELIEF"

openly curious