Judgment Day's "Real Evidence"

[go777go]

You are quite correct that God cannot be 'weighed' like a 10 pound sack of spuds! Neither can an electric current. Yet we believe in electricity because we see it working.

I never said God cannot be weighed like a sack of potatoes (thus implying that his "weight" was some sort of issue). That is a complete misinterpretation (for those keeping score, please read post #3). I stated that one cannot scientifically prove God's existence like one can scientifically prove a certain sack of potatoes weighs about ten pounds or that a heart has four chambers. Your educational bona fides show me that this distinction shouldn't be hard for you to comprehend.

In exactly the same way, we see God working. There are of course people who will deny it is God, just as there are (I've MET THEM!!!) people who don't believe it is 'electricity' that turns on a light bulb, but rather, demonic forces! What YOU do not see as 'scientific evidence' I and approximately 2.3 billion other people (including lots of professional scientists) DO see as 'scientific evidence.

You mean you have scientific proof of God's existence? The Christian God too? Does that mean that we don't have to call religion faith anymore? Does this mean you have proof of talking snakes too? You need to contact Larry King. I think he will want you as a guest--this is big news.

(Also, even if you did have scientific proof that God is "working", it would not necessarily be evidence that it is the Christian God. You would then have the chore of scientifically proving that others' faiths are incorrect and yours is correct. I am quite sure that you know this--I state this for other readers' edification.)

That is exactly why I tell you that you are retreating into the mystical, unfalsifiable religious realm with your claims.

Nope, not true. I would gladly abandon any beliefs that I have if there were good, scientific reasons to do this. However, I happen to know bunk when I see it.

To another poster here, I must add: Any claim that EVERYTHING can be explained within the narrow confines of 'science' is utterly absurd! Very, very few reputable scientists would agree. That is why there is a whole field called 'Philosophy' and 'Metaphysics'. Your statement shows you are not familiar with Immanuel Kant.

You shouldn't use the word "absurd" until you show me proof that 950-year-old men, talking snakes, and a perfect deity that "repents" that he made his creations, exists. This is what I mean about bunk.

I ask you what holds atoms together? is gravity the force that keeps the planets in orbit ?if so what keeps gravity in balance . in the chaotic center of a nucleus what keeps one nuetron from bumping another out of its cycle causing a nuclear break down?or an electron from hitting another electron you know how close together atoms are . I question most everything scientist say about these things. what is science but mans quest for truth. why does man have to search for answers of this planet when we've been around for millions of years ? certainly we would have to reserved some intellect through our supposed journey of evolution.if we are evolving that means we are adapting positively to our habitat, so why is everything getting worse for us. lastly think about this , God spoke every thing into existance (emmiting a frequency) isnt it funy how everything can be measured in frequency?

[ted]

This thread is based upon someone asking why we would believe that God is going to present us with scientific evidence of Himself on the day of judgement.

Simply put; that is not Biblical stance. It's true that all things will be revealed to us, but it doesn't mean that God will provide for us the scientific proof of Himself to satisfy the scientific dilema that most have been waiting for an answer of.

Supposing that God will use scientific methods to reveal Himself to the world on the day of judgement is simply not something that the Bible teaches us.

Perhaps that is one thing which confuses our non-trusting friends? They are waiting for a scientific model to trust in God, but God simply wants their hearts to be turned to Him.

If we are to take the Bible as truth, then don't expect God to lay it all out on a computer model on judement day, but rather, expect to be in front of Jesus, explaining why you waited for scientific evidence from Him shortly before being tossed into the lake of fire.

If you are waiting for scientific proof of God, then by all means, be my guest to make the choice to wait.

It's pretty much what God wants to know from you in the first place, and exactly the criteria He will use to judge you with on that day.

I will ask you to reconsider your choice against His word, though.

t.

[sylvan3]

If we are to take the Bible as truth, then don't expect God to lay it all out on a computer model on judement day, but rather, expect to be in front of Jesus, explaining why you waited for scientific evidence from Him shortly before being tossed into the lake of fire.

That's the whole point, I don't accept it as truth. The fact that God would not present scientific evidence of his existence, while making a belief in him a requirement for heaven, is nonsensical. This is not consistent with a loving God. It strongly reflects a God of someone's imagination.

[ted]

That's the whole point, I don't accept it as truth. The fact that God would not present scientific evidence of his existence, while making a belief in him a requirement for heaven, is nonsensical. This is not consistent with a loving God. It strongly reflects a God of someone's imagination.

I would contend that it's an indication of God wanting you to believe in Him regardless of where mankind's study leads them.

That's what the faith is all about, and how He wants you to trust in Him.

I understand that it presents a dilema for the nonbeliever. In fact, it wasn't that long ago that I posed the same questions. I'm 40 years old now, but have only trusted in God for almost six of them now.

But, the dilema is basically this: We want scientific proof of His being before we trust in Him, but He wants us to trust in Him regardless of the scientific proof. He wants us to trust in Him with a child-like heart in the sense that small children trust in their parents to provide for them. Our children do not require proof that we will take care of their needs of food, clothing, shelter, or safety, but they trust in those things without even thinking about it.

That is what God wants from us- the same child-like trust and security which our own children have in us.

Hey, despite all of my argumentive posts, jokes, and other things, I understand precisely where you, and others, are coming from. I, along with most believers, actually came from the same school of thought, when you think about it. Nobody is born "Christian" no matter how hard some may try to convince you of that. The Bible says we must be Born Again to the Spirit to technically qualify as Christian, and being Born Again, ultimately, is of our own choice.

No amount of talk is ever going to convince anyone of God's existence without the ability of the non-believer to be open to the possibility of God being there in the absence of direct, scientific proof. It's that simple.

What you are looking for is simply not provided for us currently. What you are seeking is there, but the methods (the scientific model, for example) you use to find the answers are not the methods which will reveal God to you (I say "you", but I'm directing it to no one in particular).

So, we are left to weigh the words of the Bible and make the choice as best we can. Some choose to accept it, and others want more before they decide.

It is my opinion that the Bible provides precisely what we need to know in order to make that choice. It may not give us the answers to every question we will ever have concerning world history or provide for us every scientific answer that we seek, but it does give us exactly, precisely what we need to know to make an informed, solid decision for Christ. It gives us a little background of why we need Him, and even gives us a hint of things to come in order to spur us on a little, but ultimately, the choice is ours and the Bible gives us what we need to know to make that choice.

Now, I could pray and ask God to give you exactly what you need in the scientific model to make the choice for Him, but that would be asking amiss, wouldn't it? He doesn't want you to come to Him in that manner, according to the Bible. He, instead, wants you to trust in what He has revealed to you through the Bible, and that is how I will direct my prayers: That you come to an understanding of what He has revealed to you through His Word.

I know there's questions, trust me. In fact, I still have many within my heart today, but I trust in Him and that He will reveal all one day. And even then, I don't think He'll use the scientific methods and laws. I think He'll just be here and then there will be no denying Him based on the premise that he'll be right in front of our faces, able to be seen and touched.

A gentle word of warning, though: according to the Bible, it will then be too late to make the choice. The chapter of history, which many refer to the "Church Age", will then be closed and a new age will begin. By then, it will be too late to make the choice for yourself. God, according to the Bible, will then make that choice for you. But, according to His justice, He will base that choice on the choice you made for Him in the first place.

I don't want you to take this as a simple "turn or burn" message, but in actuality, that's pretty much what it will mean after He has returned.

Sylvan3, sometimes we Christians want to argue these points from our own hearts, but the truth is; it's not our system at all. The complete system is God's to do what He will with. I try to do what I can to help others see how I see it but that's about all I can do. It's not my program, but I try to explain things when I think I can help.

Ultimately, the entire program is God's, and it is to Him who we will answer to. If I have caused any kind of stumbling block for you through my words, just let me know and I'll do my best to clear it up.

In the end, it's up to us to make the choice. We can either trust in Him, or choose not to. God rarely steps in to force that upon us. I think of the conversion of Paul, and used to think that he didn't have a choice in the matter. A "forced conversion", if you will. But, Paul had the choice, too. He could have ran the other way like Jonah did. Throughout my readings, I haven't yet found a person in Scripture who didn't have the same ability to choose whether they would follow God's lead or not. Not a one was forced by God into following him. Even Jonah could have still made the choice not to follow God's will after all he had been through. He would have probably paid dearly for that choice, but the choice was his still.

The same applied to Job, as well.

No one will be forced into accepting Jesus, or into believing what the Bible says during our current age. It's simply not going to happen. But, according to the Bible, there will come a day when every knee shall bend and all will be forced to acknowledge Him. Then, I believe, you will have your proof.

Again, I'm not saying this in a scare-tactic kind of way. I'm trying, though, to help you see how God wants us to come to Him during this time, and how He will reveal Himself sometime in the future, however sooner or later from today that may happen.

The choice, of course, is our own.

May you take a moment to reflect.

Blessings,

t.