1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

[apothanein kerdos]

lol

How nice of you to revert to that even though I brought up a solidified explanation of what mark had already provided.

To prop this up even further, we look at things differently than Paul did. Paul, being a hebrew and living in the middle east, would view any sayings about time (such as coming, going, etc) in terms of prupose and not chronologically (as we do). If someone today were to say, "Those of us alive during this time", we would view this as a present collective "us" because of our chronological view. Paul would not have necessarily viewed it this way and instead viewed the time as a purpose, not as a chronologicaly point in time. In other words, those who are alive during the fulfillment of this purpose...

"No, don't destroy my straw-man, then I might have to believe in Christ!"

OK, what evidence do you have for what you say about the mindset of the first century Hebrew?

Even if you are right, that Paul could have understood it that way, (because of the mindset of the first century Hebrew) I can't see any evidence provided by you that he certainly did, or likely did. And as I said, there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that they expected Jesus to return in the first century.

As for accusing me of a "straw man", I started a thread on this issue and I didn't get much response from the Christians around here. They ran away.

Well generally it's common knowledge among those who study these issues. However, for evidence:

The hebrew word yowm can refer to a chronological point in time (such as a day) or a purpose in time (such as a time period of thought). Generally, when speaking of the future in the Old Testament, we see more emphasis upon the latter than upon the former showing that "future-speak" involves refering to the purpose and not the literal time.

We also see that there are two Greek words used for time in the New Testament (two main ones, there are other small ones such as arche and nun, but I want to focus on two main ones). We have chronos and kairos. We are ruled by chronos time in the modern age. I know when it is time to wake up because my alarm goes off at a certain time. kairos time, however, refers to an event within time that signifies the time has come. An example would be that the maggai knew it was time to look for the King of kings because they saw His star, it signified a purpose within time...not because it was July 21, 11pm, 10BC.

You can ask for proof from an ancient source but you won't find it. Time, as we know it (chronos), did not come into full use until we could tell time. However, Os Guinness covers the issue well in the first chapter of "Prophetic Untimeliness."

Regardless, when Paul refers to "we that are caught up" he is most likely refering to the "we", the collective body of believers, in the future. One other thing you forget that we see from language use in the New Testament and early Christian writings is that they viewed the collective body as that which was, which is, and which is to come. Thus when we see a collective reference to believers, we must take this into account. It is not refering to the believers who are alive at that time, but to past, present, and future believers. The evidence is overwhelming when we see this, thus Paul most likely was refering to those that were alive at that time.

Good luck finding other passages because you're going to run into the same interpretation I just gave above. Likewise, many early Church fathers guessed that the comming of Christ would have to come much later, and they based this off biblical interpretation as well as tradition....(will provide evidence of this if requested, just lazy right now).

Lastly, if you can come forth and prove that Paul thought Christ would return in his lifetime, so what? He had hopes, many generations up to this one has thought the same thing out of hope...all you would prove is that Paul was hoping Christ would return. So what?

[ted]

Point, set, match.

Excellent piece, AK.

t.

[eric]

A big problem with non believers is that they don't believe what it is they are non believers in, AK. I hope he has learned something at last.

[apothanein kerdos]

Since I'll be gone tomorrow, here are the quotes from the Church fathers:

"As these things, then, are in the future, and as the ten toes of the image are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal survey. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander

[TheProcess]

Good luck finding other passages because you're going to run into the same interpretation I just gave above.

We have a specific claim made about the time that Jesus would return:

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (Matthew 16:27-28 KJV)

"There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death"

(Yes, I am aware that Christians will interpret it in a number of different ways, but these verses clearly connect with Matthew 24.)

And again in Matthew 24 you have the claim that "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

[TheProcess]

Lastly, if you can come forth and prove that Paul thought Christ would return in his lifetime, so what? He had hopes, many generations up to this one has thought the same thing out of hope...all you would prove is that Paul was hoping Christ would return. So what?

Your right about this. It wouldn't (by itself) be a problem. But if Paul seems to expect Jesus to return in the first century, it is supporting evidence to Jesus having made a prediction that he would return in the lifetime of some of his immediate followers. (As seems to be indicated in other parts of the Bible.)

[SoliDeoGloria4708]

I really don't think it matters very much, but I agree with Ak

Edited August 1, 2006 by SoliDeoGloria4708

[TheProcess]

Not only do we seem to have specific claims about when Jesus would return, (specific in that it will happen within a certain time frame), we also seem to have later parts of the Bible trying to explain the problem away:

"The second of the problems mentioned above -- if Jesus expected God to change the world, he was wrong -- is by no means novel. It arose very early in Christianity. This is the most substantial issue in the earliest surviving Christian document, Paul's letter to the Thessalonians. There, we learn, Paul's converts were shaken by the fact that some members of the congregation had died; they expected the Lord to return while they were all still alive. Paul assured them that the (few) dead Christians would be raised so that they could participate in the coming kingdom along with those who were still alive when the Lord returned. The question of just how soon the great event would occur appears in other books of the New Testament. A saying in the synoptics (discussed more fully below) promises that 'some standing here' will still be alive when the Son of Man comes. In the appendix to the Gospel of John (ch. 21), however, Jesus is depicted as discussing an anonymous disciple, called 'the disciple whom Jesus loved', with Peter: 'If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?' The author then explains, 'So, the rumour spread in the community that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?"' (John 21.21-3).

The history of these adjustments to the view that God would do something dramatic while Jesus' contemporaries were still alive is fairly easy to reconstruct. Jesus originally said that the Son of Man would come in the immediate future, while his hearers were alive... Then, when people started dying, they [the followers of Jesus] said that some would still be alive. When almost the entire first generation was dead, they maintained that one disciple would still be alive. Then he died, and it became necessary to claim that Jesus had not actually promised even this one disciple that he would live to see the great day. By the time we reach one of the latest books of the New Testament, 2 Peter, the return of the Lord has been postponed even further: some people scoff and say, 'Where is the promise of his coming?' But remember, 'with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day' (2 Peter 3.3-8). The Lord is not really slow, but rather keeps time by a different calendar.

In the decades after Jesus' death, then, the Christians had to revise their first expectations again and again. This makes it very probable that the expectation originated with Jesus. We make sense of these pieces of evidence if we think that Jesus himself told his followers that the Son of Man would come while they still lived. The fact that this expectation was difficult for Christians in the first century helps prove that Jesus held it himself. We also note that Christianity survived this early discovery that Jesus had made a mistake very well."

E.P. Sanders (1993) The Historical Figure of Jesus, Penguin.

[SoliDeoGloria4708]

Not only do we seem to have specific claims about when Jesus would return, (specific in that it will happen within a certain time frame), we also seem to have later parts of the Bible trying to explain the problem away:

"The second of the problems mentioned above -- if Jesus expected God to change the world, he was wrong -- is by no means novel. It arose very early in Christianity. This is the most substantial issue in the earliest surviving Christian document, Paul's letter to the Thessalonians. There, we learn, Paul's converts were shaken by the fact that some members of the congregation had died; they expected the Lord to return while they were all still alive. Paul assured them that the (few) dead Christians would be raised so that they could participate in the coming kingdom along with those who were still alive when the Lord returned. The question of just how soon the great event would occur appears in other books of the New Testament. A saying in the synoptics (discussed more fully below) promises that 'some standing here' will still be alive when the Son of Man comes. In the appendix to the Gospel of John (ch. 21), however, Jesus is depicted as discussing an anonymous disciple, called 'the disciple whom Jesus loved', with Peter: 'If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?' The author then explains, 'So, the rumour spread in the community that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?"' (John 21.21-3).

The history of these adjustments to the view that God would do something dramatic while Jesus' contemporaries were still alive is fairly easy to reconstruct. Jesus originally said that the Son of Man would come in the immediate future, while his hearers were alive... Then, when people started dying, they [the followers of Jesus] said that some would still be alive. When almost the entire first generation was dead, they maintained that one disciple would still be alive. Then he died, and it became necessary to claim that Jesus had not actually promised even this one disciple that he would live to see the great day. By the time we reach one of the latest books of the New Testament, 2 Peter, the return of the Lord has been postponed even further: some people scoff and say, 'Where is the promise of his coming?' But remember, 'with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day' (2 Peter 3.3-8). The Lord is not really slow, but rather keeps time by a different calendar.

In the decades after Jesus' death, then, the Christians had to revise their first expectations again and again. This makes it very probable that the expectation originated with Jesus. We make sense of these pieces of evidence if we think that Jesus himself told his followers that the Son of Man would come while they still lived. The fact that this expectation was difficult for Christians in the first century helps prove that Jesus held it himself. We also note that Christianity survived this early discovery that Jesus had made a mistake very well."

E.P. Sanders (1993) The Historical Figure of Jesus, Penguin.

That's a very week argument that is relying on skewed interpretation due to a preconceived desire to disprove Jesus's divinity. I'll explain more later. I'm sure others can as well. I got to work now.

Edited August 1, 2006 by SoliDeoGloria4708

[TheProcess]

Furthermore, if we follow history, we find that when prophecies, especially one concerning the end of days, do not come true when predicted that religion loses members, dies, or is placed into obscurity. We see this with Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and even older pagan religions. Though modern numbers show an increase, looking into history we find that when a prophecy was made and did not come true the numbers dropped drastically....this has occured with ALL religions in the past.

There is Biblical evidence that it did cause problems to Christianity. (See above.) Perhaps some Christians did renounce the faith? There are examples of where a prediction of the return of Jesus turns out to be wrong, the believers will merely shift the prediction into the future. If Christinity were expanding around the time that a prophecy of Jesus had recently been falsified, well what information did these converts have access to at that time? And how critical were these people?

With this in mind, it makes no sense that Paul would believe Christ would return in his lifetime when no one else believed this.

E.P. Sanders cites the appendix to John that early Christians did believe it: "Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die"