THE IMAGE OF GOD

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Godrulz,

On another forum the question arose as to Adam's PERFECTION. I thought it was appropriate to pose my response here as well. The question amounts to "what is the image of God". Some say Adam was created "perfect", yet scripture does not reveal that. Once we see that Jesus was the only one that was "perfect", and completely sinless, then we realize that Adam too fell short of the Glory which is Jesus' alone. Jesus had NO need of anything in THIS creation. Even when He thirsted, HE spoke as though that wasn't even in his concern.

Right now we are being molded to conform to the Image and Likeness of Jesus as He was on this earth. That is complete and utter trust in God because it is ultimately HE that will provide for all our needs.

Adam as a type of his subsequent siblings - even us, was dependent upon the "Tree of Life" if he were to "live forever", and "be like God".

Remember when Jesus was asked "Good Rabbi", and Jesus responded "Why dost thou call me good? There is only one good and He is in heaven." I believe that Jesus was confessing his humanity here, NOT His Godhood status. And as man, who was made a "little lower than the angels" and in the "likeness of sinful man", He was totally dependent upon the Holy Spirit to overcome the Old Adam to which He was born. This is what we need to see in the scriptures. We must be reliant on the Holy Spirit if we are to become Sons of God. Please read the Roman verses again where it talks about the creature being subject to vanity.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[godrulz]

Dad Ernie: To say Jesus had to overcome the Old Adam sounds like he was tainted by Adam's sin. As you know, Christ was born and remained sinless. He is the perfect God-man: One person with 2 natures. His human nature was sinless, because sin is a wrong moral choice, not something passed on genetically (I believe the doctrine of 'original sin' is more Catholic than Biblical). He was tempted as we are, yet without sin. The temptation was external, rather than internal to Him.

God-Man:  I believe God is everywhere present, but feel it is an absurdity to say He is in all times at once. Time is an aspect of God's being and is simply duration or succession (it allows Him and us to think, reason, choose, experience, feel, change). Our time has a beginning with no ending. God's time is everlasting/endless with no beginning or ending. The past is done (memory only), the present is now, the future is not yet, even for God. He has perfect knowledge of the past and present (unlike us), but knows some of the future as a possibility (uncertainty) until free choices are made (they become actual). Some things in the future He knows as a certainty and can prophesy this because He will bring it to pass regardless what man does or does not do. He knows and experiences reality as it is. The "eternal now" concept comes from pagan Greek philosophy. I think a more Biblical alternative is that time is everlasting and history is meaningful even to God. Guess what, we (or God) cannot change the past (fixed) or travel back to the past (science fiction), nor can we travel into the future to change it. Present choices create and fix the future.

Are you saying God has a form and man has a literal form as His image? (I could almost buy this, but not on the basis of your linear concept). I think image minimally refers to personhood and moral character.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Godrulz,

To say Jesus had to overcome the Old Adam sounds like he was tainted by Adam's sin.

You had better reread what I wrote, I said no such thing. Jesus was given the spirit "without measure", unlike us who may acquire the spirit in some measure according to the grace He has called us to.

He has perfect knowledge of the past and present (unlike us), but knows some of the future as a possibility (uncertainty) until free choices are made (they become actual).

You are absolutely wrong about God being (uncertain) about any portion of ANYTHING, including the future. Omniscience means ALL knowledge. He knows the beginning from the end. There is NOTHING of which He is not absolutely sure of.

Also "time" is a created thing and most certainly God is NOT contained or constrained within any of His creation. He is eternal, without beginning and without end. You and I can't even grasp the enormity of that, even as we can't grasp any of God's omni- qualities.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[godrulz]

Omnipotence means God is all powerful and can do what is doable and not contradictory. Can He create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? No, because this is an absurdity, an illogical statement like saying God can make 2+2=5. It is not a limit on his omnipotence.

Likewise, omniscience means God knows all/everything that is knowable. It is an absurdity to say He can know the future free choices of man as a certainty before they are made. If He could, He would have to cause them, including evil, and they would not be free (may or may not happen= choice). God cannot just look into the future, because there is nothing there to know (except what he purposed to bring to pass...this does not include things like who will win the Superbowl in 4 years or which chess piece I will move on the 10th move if I play a game in 23 weeks).

"Aspects of the future, being unsettled, are not wholly known even to God. It does not mean that God is ignorant of something he ought to know, but that many things in the future are only possible and not yet actual. Therefore, he knows them correctly as possible and not actual."  -Clark Pinnock

This is a big controversy in Evangelical circles and has important ramifications. Our goal is to be Biblical and make sure our doctrines have not been influenced by pagan philosophy. This topic is outside the image of God thread. Let me assure you I believe God is absolutely omniscient, but we differ about the objects of God's knowledge about the future.

Time is not a "thing" that was created (can you see, smell, feel, taste it?). It is simply succession and duration that even God experienced from everlasting to everlasting. It is unidirectional. He is not limited by it. It is simply an aspect of any personal being's experience. Creation had a beginning with a start of earth and human history/time. This does not preclude an eternity of succession and duration in the fellowship of the Godhead (divine 'time'?). Yes, he is uncreated and eternal. Who said he is stuck in creation or time? Time does not limit him like it does us. "The distinction between what is possible and what is actual is valid for God as well as us. The past is actual, the present is becoming, and the future is possible." This is reality as depicted in Scripture and common sense. This is not a limitation on the limitless God.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Godrulz,

Since all I know about Clark Pinnock is what you wrote, and if I had to make some evaluation of him based on what you gave me, I would say he was a HERETIC!

As for God's omnipotence, since He is NOT contained nor constrained by His creation, it is as you say, an "absurdity" to consider whether God can make a rock so big He could not lift it. The same goes for "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

But regarding God's Omniscience, you can't have it both ways. Either by His FOREKNOWLEDGE He is aware of every last detail of ALL of His creation even to the end of all ages, OR He planned and organized it so that ALL the prophecies written down that were then yet future, would come about, meaning in essence that we are all puppets and God is pulling the strings. We are told that from the "foundation of the world" God knew that Jesus was going to the Cross. He also knew who would be saved and who wouldn't. Who would go to heaven and who would go to H-ll. Please do a word search for "foundation" in the Bible and determine this for yourself.

As for God's eternality, and not being contained nor constrained by it, I realized that God gave us a "theorem" regarding "time" a little while back. In regards to the "days" of creation, here is the theorem:

Time = The interval between two separate and successive events.

I saw this where it says:

Genesis 1:5 And the evening and the morning were the first day.

This is where TIME was created.

Now if Jesus was the "lamb slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD", how can that be if this is speaking of the "temporal"? It can't. PERIOD. But in the mind of our God, in His very being, which is NOT contained nor constrained by ANY of His creation, it was ALREADY a done deal.

You might want to consider these verses:

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. (AS THIS APPLIES TO CHRIST)

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

I am sure others can give even more verses which contradict what you hold to be true.

Please give these some careful consideration.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[godrulz]

I responded privately to Brother Ernie.

I forgot to add that day and night being the first day is simply one way to measure earthly time. It was not the creation of time, which is not a thing. There are many ways to measure the reality of time from a human perspective. The concept of time as endless duration and sequence should not be confused with its measures. Whether we measure it or not, it still exists experientially. The triune God from all eternity experienced succession and duration. It is the only way He could love, relate, think, fellowship, create, act, and feel. To say He experiences past, present, and future as one eternal now negates personality and is philosphically and theologically indefensible. God is dynamic and relational. The static concept of God comes from Platonic Greek philosophy and is not worthy of the Living God.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Godrulz,

Did you know that God once caused time to halt? Did you know that He caused time to move backward?

Do you think that God created gravity, light, and sound? Why do you have a problem with Him creating TIME? You say my position is "theologically indefensible". If so, then please show me SCRIPTURALLY where and why I am wrong.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest shadow2b]

Greetings Godrulz,

Since all I know about Clark Pinnock is what you wrote, and if I had to make some evaluation of him based on what you gave me, I would say he was a HERETIC!

As for God's omnipotence, since He is NOT contained nor constrained by His creation, it is as you say, an "absurdity" to consider whether God can make a rock so big He could not lift it. The same goes for "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

But regarding God's Omniscience, you can't have it both ways. Either by His FOREKNOWLEDGE He is aware of every last detail of ALL of His creation even to the end of all ages, OR He planned and organized it so that ALL the prophecies written down that were then yet future, would come about, meaning in essence that we are all puppets and God is pulling the strings. We are told that from the "foundation of the world" God knew that Jesus was going to the Cross. He also knew who would be saved and who wouldn't. Who would go to heaven and who would go to H-ll. Please do a word search for "foundation" in the Bible and determine this for yourself.

As for God's eternality, and not being contained nor constrained by it, I realized that God gave us a "theorem" regarding "time" a little while back. In regards to the "days" of creation, here is the theorem:

Time = The interval between two separate and successive events.

I saw this where it says:

Genesis 1:5 And the evening and the morning were the first day.

This is where TIME was created.

Now if Jesus was the "lamb slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD", how can that be if this is speaking of the "temporal"? It can't. PERIOD. But in the mind of our God, in His very being, which is NOT contained nor constrained by ANY of His creation, it was ALREADY a done deal.

You might want to consider these verses:

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. (AS THIS APPLIES TO CHRIST)

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

I am sure others can give even more verses which contradict what you hold to be true.

Please give these some careful consideration.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

heyyyyyyyyy you guys are deeeeeeppppppp,& i do mean deep--whewwwwwwww, could ya'll lighten up on the 68cent words, where i can understand plain little ole 14cent words??

I mean have a little mercy guys/gal--- :blush: I'LL shut up now & continue to try to reason these philosophical discussions out with my websters..-----

shadow2b--------

[godrulz]

We are off the image of God thread. Are you sure you want to be? I believe it is worth wrestling with these profound issues. Let there be light and not heat.

Did God really make time stand still and go backwards? Is there another way to understand this? During that exciting historical time when something happened with the measure of time, there was not a state of suspended animation with nothing happening! God did not freeze up and quit thinking, acting, and feeling. Historical events and experiences still unfolded. Man was not frozen and did not cease to act, feel, exist, and think. History and experience for God and man continued with duration and sequence

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Godrulz,

Note: these thoughts are in the realm of reason and philosophy, but honestly are consistent with a literal reading of Scripture.

You have said something similar to this before, but you have not offered one jot or one tittle of scripture to demonstrate this. You have argued from a philosophical viewpoint only.

If what you say was true regarding God not "knowing" the "unknowable" of future events, then how is it that we find so much prophecy in the Bible that did and is and will be coming true? How is it that those who are going to be saved had their names written in the Lambs Book of Life from the VERY foundation of the World, if God did not KNOW it beforehand?

I agree with many of the things you related, but I still utterly disagree with you that God's omniscience is limited in any way.

Please give me some scriptural PROOF that what you say is true.

In regards to God changing His mind. You already quoted the verse that says He doesn't. So we have to reconcile that with what appears just the opposite. So consistenly in scripture God has given us an either/or situation. God told Adam "eat of the Tree of Life and live" OR "in the day you eat of the tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil, you shall die". I actually have found very few scriptures where God has not done this. Through Jonah, God told Ninevah to repent or be destroyed. They repented. So if we can understand how God operates, then where it fails to mention an either/or situation, I believe it is safe to understand that God always give us an alternative.

Please provide appropriate scriptures.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie