THE IMAGE OF GOD

[Guest shilou]

I'm sorry Godrulz but you are looking at this from human intellecualism rather than acceptance that God is the Alpha and the Omega. Your statements do not line up with scripture therefore are not worhty of examination. You were asked to present scripture to back up your position and thus far have not. Our names were written from the foundations. What does that mean to you. To me that means He knew I would exist at this time in history and that I would be writing this to you. All of this is what makes me stand in awe of God. I look at the sea creatures and the ants and the vegetation, and the absolute beauty of creation and all the different personalities and I am dumbfounded by the extent and endlessness of God.

The God that planned out and executed all that we stand on and all that is around us and the capacity of the human mind is more than capable of knowing ahead of time how each of us will choose. What we as humans always seem to forget is we are not alone. There is a heavenly realm that exists also and all is working for Gods purposes. A third of the angels left with Satan meaning they have free will also. So as they stand as an example to us, we also stand as an example to them and all of it comes together to show us and them who is ultimately in control. I'm not saying that God controls our choices, I'm saying He knows what they will be. He has allowed this for many reasons but one would be to show something to the angels and to show Satan and future generations how fruitless and painful it is to go against him. Even after Christ's return and after Satan is revealed again after the 1000 years I believe we will maintain our self will. But we will have a very long sordid history to point to in the future to say look what happens when you start thinking that way. What is going on here is for our growth and learning process to become obedient to God so we can take that into eternity and know it is the only way to go. Hope I'm making sense. And if you have any scripture to back up what you are saying I am more than willing to look at it.

Love in Yeshua

Shilou

[godrulz]

Of course we agree that God is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last (note that these are temporal/time expressions and do not support the "eternal now" concept). He is uncreated and has existed from everlasting past and will exist forever (endless duration from eternity past to eternity future). Throwing out this title does not resolve the issues. Your simplistic dismissal of the Openness view shows that you have not become familiar with it. There are God-fearing, God-loving scholars/theologians and laymen who strongly feel this position is very Scriptural and Biblical. They teach at leading evangelical seminaries and are born-again. These issues have been wrestled with for 100s of years with intelligent, godly believers on both sides. This is not a simple issue. How much of our theology has been tainted by pagan philosophy (Augustine and Calvin influence our theology, but they were not right in every single issue and were at times influenced by pagan Plato and others)? There are many books dealing with these issues, such as those by Intervarsity Press (university outreach and evangelical). "Christianity Today" has been following this dabate fairly (very evangelical magazine). Some unbelievers have rejected Christianity and are out of the Kingdom because of incoherent theism. Some believers are ineffective and have distorted views of God and their responsibilities because of bad theology. There are inherent problems in your view that you no doubt do not realize and understand. An anti-intellectual treatment of Scriptural themes is a disservice to the truth. No wonder there are so many fads and winds of doctrine confusing the church if we are just experiential without reason. The Openness view is worthless unless it primarily comes out of a revelation of Scripture. However, Scripture does not resolve every detail of understanding all Biblical theology. I believe in the Trinity, Virgin Birth, Incarnation, etc. but do not understand every detail perfectly because Scripture does not explain every detail (we do not need to know). Yet, we formulate the fact that Jesus is one person with 2 natures (God-Man), God is one, yet many, etc. (remember the Councils and controversies throughout church history).

This is akin to the Calvin versus Arminian debate (or pre vs post trib. or charismatic vs non-charismatic). I do not presume to say Calvinists are using human intellectual arguments and are not worthy of consideration or are not Biblical believers or their statements do not line up with Scripture. Is this not one of the biggest, divisive issues in Christianity? Are we to never debate or study this issue because our minds are made up? Is it unimportant?

I feel strongly that Calvinism is often very unscriptural (e.g. once saved, always saved; limited atonement for the elect; predestining some to hell), but do not dismiss it with a sentence. Loving truth is a lifelong pursuit.

I have said I will get to the Scriptures, but I have been at work for the last 4 days and nights and do not have a Bible or time to start this. There are countless books and articles

[Guest shilou]

Godrulz

Like I said if I'm given the scripture I am more than happy to change my views. I want my views to line up with scripture. I cannot find anything that would suggest to me that God does not know future. What I do see is a being so supreme and beyond anything we can possible understand as the creator of all that is and all that will be. Zechariah 13:8 In the whole land, declares the Lord, "Two tirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third I will bring into the fire" so how could God know it to be a third that will remain to be refined by the fire if He doesn't know ahead of time that two thirds will choose the wrong path.

When you have time let's do this with scripture. I know there are alot of great minds out there, but none better than the Holy Spirit. So all the philosophies and theologies aside, I'm truly interested in what your saying but according to scripture not mans works.

Love in Yeshua

Shilou

[godrulz]

Good heart Shilou and Ernie. I will do this a little at a time due to time constraints. Do not jump to conclusions before I can get through a pattern of Scriptures (may take weeks).

I believe Scripture teaches much of the future is definite and settled due to God's power and sovereignty (these are the verses you will like and that we are in agreement in principle). I believe there is another motif (theme) that much of the future is indefinite and open due to God-given human freedom (the relationship of God's sovereignty and human free will is a very old debate with many thinking it is a mystery...I think Scripture resolves it if we put aside preconceived theology that depends on a few proof texts; the 'eternal now' view is as philosophical as my view of time/eternity= do a Greek word study on these concepts). Even Calvinistic theologians admit the latter theme of openness 'appears' to be what Scripture teaches, but they take the first group of verses as literal and the second group as figurative. I like the Open view because it rightly takes both groups as literal (change our theology, not the simple, plain meaning of Scripture).

So, some passages depict God as foreknowing (Arminian) and/or predestining (Calvinism) certain things about the future. These divine predictions are not looking into a crystal ball of the future, or watching the film before it happens. Rather, they express God's intentions to act directly in the future.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Godrulz,

I was happy you chose to reveal your thoughts on the scriptures provided, but your argument is purely philosophical from man's POV. From the very beginning God has always given man an either/or situation - Tree of life/OR/Tree of Knowledge. This does not tells us He does not know the outcome of Adam's stay in the Garden, but in fact we DO have this statement:

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

So unless God knew precisely that Adam was going to sin, then why would He have prepared a plan of redemption BEFORE the world even began?

Do you understand the problem with your thinking? We cannot know the WHOLE mind of God, but only what He reveals to us through His Word. We can be certain that He has everything under control because he DOES know everything. I personally do not know "much" of the future, but I can tell you I do know the ONE WHO DOES. If I didn't have that confidence in Him, how could I possibly trust Him that no matter WHAT happens, it will be for my good and His glory. I may have up days or down days, days of turmoil, days of joy and God knows each and everyone of them even before they come to pass. Not one hair will fall off my already balding head of which the Lord did not know about even before I existed. Who can know the mind of God?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest shilou]

Ok Godrulz I see what and why you think the way you do. But I still say that is putting God on the level of humans. Here is one thing to consider perhaps these things are for our benefit not Gods. If we did not understand that we have an interactive part in our salvation why would we bother praying, and praising God? Like Moses going to God and asking for others to be forgiven. God already knew the condition of Moses heart and knew he would ask. So why put him in the position to ask? Could it have been to keep Moses humble? We don't know every single detail of what went on during the time of the Exodus but knowing mans willingness to follow other men and idolize them. God could have very possibly been averting a potential danger in that. Our need to ask and sometimes beg because we don't know the future does not mean that God doesn't know it. Look at the story of Joseph. All was constructed to keep a remnant of Israel alive through a drought, which happened many years after he was sold into slavery. How many hearts would have to be read to bring all of that about. How many peoples actions would have to be known ahead of time to have it all culminate into what it was.

In Luke 19 there is a story about a man named Zacchaeus who climbed a sycamore-fig tree to get Christ's attention. Now because this is in the Bible it is obviously an important exchange and a great lesson can be learned from it. But there is something even deeper than the apparent message it holds. That tree the man climbed was planted by a seed many years before it was ever climbed. Had the seed never been planted the man could never have climbed the tree and the exchange would have not taken place. A seed was planted in that particular spot at a particular time in history to make it big enough for a man to climb at the precise time that Christ would be walking by it. Because the specifics of how Zacchaeus got Christ's attention are written it holds within the message a message. When we get beyond our human reasoning and start seeing things in that kind of depth we get an overwhelming sense that God is so far beyond our human comprehension that WOW is the first thing that comes to mind.

Love in Yeshua

Shilou

[godrulz]

Thank you Ernie and Shilou (female, sorry) for your good heart and minds. Remember, I am just starting to look at Scripture, but I will briefly touch on some of your good points above.

I don't think my thoughts are purely philosophical any more than yours are.

To summarize for needed background (both views have many philosophical considerations):

A) Augustine (classical view) /static/'eternal now'/God is UNCHANGING in EVERY respect= all of time exists simultaneously (bizarre)= exhaustive foreknowledge (Arminian= future certain because the future will simply be that way) or predeterminism (Calvin=future certain because God foreknows it that way; these 2 great views do not agree; don't merely accuse these great camps as being human intellectual/ philosophical only; use must use Scripture AND reasoning= applies to my 3rd alternate view too= be fair). These views have to say Scripture only figuratively APPEARS to show God changes (I will show many verses explicitly teaching God changes). God's knowledge of the future can never come into being, nor can it be adjusted. It is eternally the same. It is forever settled as a 'this' and not a 'that'. There can be no 'maybe' or a 'possibly'. Whatever takes place in history, big and small, must take place exactly as God eternally foreknew it would. The future is exhaustively settled and eternally known by God as such.

[godrulz]

Shilou: ( I have finished and edited the last post; please reread)

In the open view of the future, praying really does change things. The classic view negates the power of change and prayer. I already showed from Scripture that God intended and believed somethings (genuine; not a false belief or an 'appears to be' ), then changed in time and sequence when man repented or prayed. This is historical narrative and accurately recorded as it unfolds in space and time (not foreknown/foregone).

Luke 19 (Zacchaeus) has no bearing on our discussion. This is a simple, historical event and narrative recorded as Scripture to teach us about the Lord and a man. There is nothing magical or relevant about the tree. Zacc. had the free will ability to not even climb the tree, let alone it being orchestrated by God to be there at that exact moment. The discourse could have happened anywhere or at any time and would have the same impact for him and us.

This passage would be relevant if it was a fulfillment of an ancient prophecy (which it was not). The Lord's present knowledge of Zacc.'s heart and where he was, was sufficient for the events. Knowing if a bumblebee would fly by is not necessary knowledge. Jesus was passing through (v.1) and created a divine appointment. Zacc. wanted to see Jesus (v.3) and an encounter took place. There is nothing here (except a preconceived theology) to affirm that God knew from millions of years ago that this would have to happen (He certainly did not experience this event vividly in the distant past before it happened; in 2003, God is not time traveling and reliving this actual event...its over and a past memory only).

Ernie and Shilou:

God is creative, resourceful, wise, all-powerful, and sovereign but does not need an exhaustive blueprint of the future to accomplish His purposes. It is to God's glory and greatness that He is so wise and powerful over history that He doesn't want to or have to have everything in the future settled ahead of time. This is not making Him human, but allowing texts to say what they simply seem to say. He is so confident in his power and wisdom (focus is not on foreknowledge) that He is willing to grant an appropriate degree of freedom to humans and angels (creation) to determine their future and eternal destiny (open= free; fixed= robot). God's sovereignty is not micromanaging control of every detail (even atoms move randomly). God's glory is displayed in His allowing himself to be affected by us and our decisions (to a degree...see last Scriptures). And God's sovereignty partly consists in his openness to us and to the future we help create. He even became a man and died (that was a limitation on God for a time and season and reason). An open future does not limit God and is not just my human reasoning. This resonates with how you and I practically live the Christian life, and how God is revealed in the history of Scripture.

Imperfect analogies:

Who is the greater person in a chess game? A) The player not only knows all possible moves, but somehow 'sees' the actual game before it is played and knows every actual move before it is made and studies many chess books and plans for months a counter-strategy. (How can anyone know what moves a player will make until they are made...the opening set of moves has many possibilities and a player's move is totally dependent on what the other guy does or does not do..including dumb mistakes that are possible; there are billions of possible moves in chess, and a player can move any piece or even smash the board...how would God know ahead of time if it was not in the guys mind and hands to do it?)

B) The player is a chess master with knowledge and experience, and no matter what move the other guy does or does not do, He can think and reason a play- by - play strategy in response to any of the millions of possible moves and strategies of the opponent. This player is better and not a cheater, and the outcome is uncertain until the game is finished.

Multiply this an infinite # of times to all of human history (including every bug and snowflake and atom)...God does not have to know all these mundane details to rule the universe in wisdom and power.

Who is the greater football team in the Superbowl?

A) The team who knows the other team's exact playbook and every play that they will call all game or hears the huddle play and can change the defense to match it? (Could not the coach and QB change a play or run it better or worse...these things are not controlled or predestined or foreknown).

B) The team that does not have 'foreknowledge', but is trained and knows all possibilities and is able to adjust on the run regardless what is thrown at them. If a receiver cuts right at the last moment instead of the planned route to go left, because of the way the defenders adjusted during the play, then the defender at that moment adjusts and covers the new route. Foreknowledge is irrelevant (or at least not necessary) to the game outcome if a team is competent. What counts is ability.

God's ability is endless (like His past and present knowledge), and thus makes Him omnicompetent (compared to finite humans).

I am a paramedic who goes to all kinds of random calls and accidents. If I knew years ago what calls I would go to on a shift and their exact details, I could plan and practice to perfection my responses and would not have trouble handling calls.

In reality, there are so many changing variables on a call that I am a truly greater/better paramedic because I can creatively and resourcefully respond to ANY contingency (may or may not happen because of free will and circumstances)/eventuality. It is not foreknowledge that makes me good (cheating). It is training, practice, experience (past knowledge), and present knowledge of details of this particular call that make me a good, thinking medic (instead of a computer).

How much more the omnicompetent God with life's infinite variables? He is not a static controller, but a dynamic responder and lover (that is Scriptural, not philosophical). Which view matches reality and exalts God as He really is and has revealed Himself?

[godrulz]

(Please read above 2 posts). I am now at work and will return to Scripture to support the open view of the future. The historical narratives of Hezekiah (2 Kings 20) and Jonah beg for explanation from our perspectives . Dr. Gregory Boyd is (?was) a professor of theology at conservative Bethel College and Senior pastor of a Baptist General Conference church. The college endorsed his views as a valid evangelical theological option (though not necessarily agreeing with everything). Yet many others in his denomination and the Evangelical Theological Society would want to label him as a heretic. To validate that Open Theists support ESSENTIAL Christian teaching and believe a sub-type of Arminianism worth at least considering (from the horse's mouth and representative of believers like myself):

Summary: 2 motifs...some of future settled (we agree on these verses); some of future open/unsettled (we disagree... these are verses we are now considering)...

"Traditionally, theologians have taken all passages that demonstrate that the future is settled in either in God's mind (foreknowledge) or in God's will (predestination) as revealing the whole truth about God's relationship to the future. They therefore interpret all passages (we just started looking at a few) which suggest that God faces a partly open future as being figurative (is that justifiable?). On exegetical and theological grounds, I do not see this approach as warranted. I am therefore compelled (integrity) to take both sets of passages as LITERAL and thus draw the conclusion that the future which God faces is PARTLY open and PARTLY settled."

OBJECTIONS (in anticipation of legit. concerns; + let's later look at the few 'eternal' now proof texts...most of that view is speculative philosophy though...feel free to throw them out as we go): (+ where we agree and disagree...let's be fair and teachable)

1. The Open view undermines God's omniscience:

I affirm (because Scripture teaches/ not human reasoning or philosophy, my friends) that God is absolutely all knowing. There is no difference in my understanding of God's omniscience and any other orthodox theologian. But I hold that part of the reality, which God PERFECTLY knows, consists of possibilities. The difference is in our understanding of CREATION, not in our understanding of God's omniscience (He knows all that is knowable).

2. The Open view undermines God's omnipotence:

I affirm (because Scripture teaches) that God is omnipotent. He is the Creator of all things and thus all power comes from Him. But, with all Arminians, I also hold that God limits the EXERCISE of His own power by giving free will to creatures (human and angels).

3. The Open view undermines our confidence in God's ability to accomplish His purposes:

I affirm (because Scripture teaches= authority) that God can and has guaranteed whatever He wants to about the future, for He is omnipotent (ability, not necessarily foreknowledge). But I ALSO affirm (because I believe Scriputre teaches) that part of God's purpose in creation is to have free agents who decide some matters for themselves (e.g. their own eternal destiny= responsible for arbitrary). Within the parameters set by the Creator, parameters which guarantee whatever God wants to guarantee about the future, humans have SOME degree of self-determination. This means that concerning the fate of particular individuals things MAY not turn out, as God DESIRES. If we deny this, we must accept that God actually desires some people to go to hell (?!). But SCRIPTURE unequivocally denies this (I Tim. 2:4; II Peter 3:9).

4. The OPEN view undermines God's perfection:

I affirm (because Scripture teaches) the ABSOLUTE PERFECTION of God. (note: I'm not yelling, capitals are 4 emphasis) But I do not see that Scripture teaches that the future MUST be exhaustively settled either in God's mind or in God's will for God to be perfect. Rather, I believe that God's perfection is more exalted when we understand Him to be so self-confident in His power that He GENUINELY gives free will to creatures (choices may or may not be; they are possibilities until the will makes the choice...then they become reality and objects of absolute knowledge).

5. The Open view undermines the power of prayer:

I affirm (because Scripture teaches) that petitionary prayer is our most powerful tool in bringing about the Father's will "on earth as it is in heaven". Indeed, because my view allows for the future to be somewhat open, I believe it makes the best sense out of the URGENCY and EFFICACIOUSNESS (effectiveness), which Scripture attaches to prayer (things are not a fixed, unchangeable forgone fatalistic conclusions...my words).

6. The open view cannot account for biblical prophecy:

I affirm (because

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Godrulz,

Are we speaking the same language yet?

You can "affirm" all you want, but you are still not speaking the language of the Bible. Please consider the following:

IN THESE VERSES, GOD SPECIFICALLY PROPHESIED ABOUT SAUL AND THE PROPHETS. WAS IT BECAUSE OF HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE OR DID GOD PULL THE PUPPET'S STRINGS?

1 Sam 10:5-7 After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy: 6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. 7 And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.

CONSISTENTLY GOD TELLS HIS PROPHETS BEFORE THINGS HAPPEN. HE COULD NOT DO SO ACCORDING TO YOU UNLESS HE WAS PULLING THE STRINGS.

Isaiah 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Isaiah 48:3-7 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass. 4 Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass; 5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them. 6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them. 7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

John 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie