THE IMAGE OF GOD

[Guest shilou]

God rulz I never said that God was static. What I did say is that even though God can see what choices we will make He stands back and allows us to fall flat on our faces and uses it to bring us closer to Him knowing ahead of time He will do that. The story in Jonah is for our benefit, it is put in a way to the occupants of Ninevah that they have a choice. Just because they are given that choice does not mean God does not already know how they will respond to it. I agree with Ernies analogy about the gold. You accuse him of not looking at this in full context. God tests our faith to strengthen and refine us, He is already perfect, He does not need to be refined, nor does He neccessarily need me to be happy and exist. I need Him.

You claim I can't see the forest throught the trees, well then explain to me why when I point out to someone the glory of God through the story of the seed, not in anyway do I use the story in it's face value, I get a wow, and the other person experiences a warm and wonderful revelation of the vastness of God in the simple telling of this. This whole thing is not about how much we know or how well we can quote scripture. It's all about a loving relationship between us and God. I trust God even when I'm in the fire because whatever the outcome it is what He planned for me. It's like Daniel and his friends in the fire. They didn't know if they would live or die, but one thing they did know was that they could trust God to have it come out the way He wanted to and what was best at that time for them. It's as simple as this. If God doesn't know the future then I am going to make a decision about how I want it to come out and pray my will be done. When it doesn't go my way I am going to think God deserted me or doesn't care, or can't hear my prayers. When I come to the understanding that God does know how it will all turn out and I trust that whatever that is will be to my best interest then I have reached a new understanding and I begin to pray that His will be done and accept that however it turns out is to my best interest. Now the amazing part is when we pray in this fashion God can actually take us places and put things in front of us we never would have thought possible. If we still think we are in charge of the outcome then the mess continues and we continue to be disatisfied because we simply don't have a clue what is best for us.

The analogy of being in control of the outcome is very damaging to the body of Christ. Last year I knew several people who prayed fervently for the recovery of a young child. He had cancer and there were whole congregations praying for him. Well he died, and I ran into the best friend of his mother. She was at one time very active in her church, she has now left and given up on God. She had it in her head if they prayed enough, begged enough, and fasted enough that they could get God to save this little boy. I tried to tell her that God obviously had other plans and we don't know yet what His reasoning but to trust Him and eventually you will understand what those reasons were. So to believe what you are saying hundreds of people who asked that their will be done set themselves up for dissapointment. And yes God rulz my mind is made up and it seems that this debate could last forever so I'm going to check out of it. For me this is a simple matter and one I don't just know on an intellectual level but one that I know from a heart felt trust, faith, love and reliance on God. I have seen way to many people fall to this false belief that they can change God's will with prayer. It's truly sad that the human race is so controlling that they even believe they can control God and that is about what that boils down to.

Love in Yeshua

Shilou

[godrulz]

Ernie:

Gold is an inanimate thing and its properties are under the law of cause and effect. Outcomes are knowable, certain, predictable unless God chooses to suspend His established laws of nature.

Man is under God's moral law and government which operates under free will and responsible moral choices (obey or disobey).

These categories are not interchangeable.

The gold analogy has application for us, but it is not to be used to develop a doctrine of sovereignty, free will, and omniscience. It is about sanctification and glorification.

Testing does develop faith and reveals our motives. The verses you gave talk more about corporate testing (Israel; Church) than about the individual ("my people"). (Revelation 2;3 is addressed to churches). So we are in agreement again here. It still does not answer the literal reading of the texts previously given where God seems to acquire new knowledge after the genuine test ("now I know...").

Shilou:

You never said God was static, but by definition, that is what the classical view of God's attributes leads to. God cannot change in any way, because He is perfect. Any change would be for the better or worse. He experiences all reality (past, present, future) all at once/ simultaneously, rather than in sequence and duration (Open view). Note that a clock changes every second day in and day out. This does not make the clock better or worse because it changes. In fact, it is perfect because it does change. How can He create? Creation shows that there is a "before" even for God, or else matter is eternal and has always existed with God (false).

Some of your life conclusions are not inconsistent with either view. Our views color our understanding of our lives. The real issue is which is true and faithful to Scripture?

God has placed 'teachers' in the Body of Christ for our equipping and edification. Just because there are liberal 'scholars'; or false Muslim 'scholars', or learned Pharisees, or secular 'scholars', does not mean that God has not given godly men and biblical scholars a love for Him and His word. If you have ever dealt with cultists, sometimes being a Greek or Hebrew scholar will make a difference in their salvation (Jn.1:1 and JWs). Don't despise the views of other men. To reduce these issues to the most simple understanding may lead to deception and is naive. It is arrogant to not look at the wealth of biblical data and opinion on all sides of any issue (for and against).

But, this board is not an academic forum, and I am just a ding a ling, so forgive me for my verbosity. I share your concerns mentioned above. It only illustrates how important right doctrine is to the practical living of our faith and our relationship with God and other believers. I love your heart, sister. The Bible does say prayer changes things, so let's obey the command to pray fervently. But, let's respect God's sovereignty and humble ourselves before Him and resist the devil and our flesh.

Love in Yeshua,

William

[godrulz]

We are looking at Scriptures to determine if God is timeless, an 'eternal now' (predominant classical/ traditional view) or if  endless time (sequence, duration, succession) is an aspect of His experience, being, personality (open view and evidenced during church history). One's view of eternity and time will affect understanding of Scripture and God's practical relationship to His creation. Put this post in context of the previous discussion.

The Eastern concept of eternity (Buddhism, Hinduism, Greek neo-Platonism) is similar to the 'eternal now' view of Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, C.S. Lewis (all of whom I respect).

The Hebraic (O.T. view) seems to picture God experiencing history and the past, present, and future in a similar way to all personal beings (but not identical= God is not limited like we are).

By analogy, is the whole film already made and produced (future fixed, unchangeable, knowable as a certainty= determinism or simple foreknowledge)? Or is it more like we live on the set of a movie in production? The Director knows the overall intent of the film, but details are lived out by the actors (not puppets). This model makes time meaningful (not illusion) and the future has genuine options within the limits of the Creator. This is the street-level doctrine and practical view of most Christians for ordinary thought and life. Ironically, it is not the theoretical theological view of most Christians/theologians.

Psalm 102:24-27  "..your (God's) YEARS (time/sequence) go on through all generations. In the beginning (time measurement reference) you laid the foundations of the earth (creation in divine sequence)...your YEARS (time measure) will never end..."

Does this sound MORE like timelessness or endless time/duration?

Ps.41:13 "...from everlasting to everlasting..." (and everything in between; Hebraic phrase does not hint at God experiencing all reality/time simultaneously= philosophical concept only)

Is. 40:28 "The Lord is the EVERLASTING God..."

Ps. 90:2 "Before (temporal reference) the mountains were born...from everlasting to everlasting you are God."

Rev.4:8 "...Lord God Almighty, who was (past), and is (present), and is to come (future)."  (endless time, NOT timelessness...these are temporal/time descriptions of the Living God...not eternal present now only).

God is uncreated, triune, Creator existing from the remote past to the indefinite future...He is called eternal (no beginning or end= uncreated), but that is not the same as an "eternal now" (Hebrew word study). He is everlasting and endless. God acts within the reality of time-space history, but He is not bound by man's finite limitations.

Time was not created, but our MEASURE of time started with creation. Time could have existed before creation if it is not a "thing". Time is not a limitation on God, but an aspect of who He is (uncreated essence). Time, like God, has no beginning or end (this does not mean time is greater than God, any more than wisdom or love or power is).

Time must be linear and unidirectional (the Eastern circular or eternal now concept can lead to reincarnation, fate, etc.). Once God thinks a new thought (and He can or we are greater in experience than him...you can't listen to a symphony unless there is succession...what on earth would eternal now music sound like?), He cannot unthink it or go back in time. God can change His mind (see previous posts). God is part of an endless and continuous sequence of thoughts, ideas, emotions, and actions (similar to us= one aspect of the image of God). God cannot jump to the future if things happen in a series.

The future does not yet exist in reality. Intervals and duration make sense for God and us (e.g. interval before, at, and after creation or creation is eternal like God). Future choices if free have not been created and in a series of events do not exist yet. Knowledge does not happen until the choice/event takes place (alternatives are possible; possible is not the same as actual).

It is as impossible for God to leave time as it is for Him to leave Himself.

Are these thoughts speculative philosophy or common-sense principles that resonate with reality and Scripture. Some believe the past, present, and future are ever present with God while others believe God lives outside of time (like time is a place...it is not). These ideas are absurd and cannot be clearly shown from all of Scripture (some proof texts are used but can be understood in more than one way). Other impossibilities for God include God being in a place that does not exist, creating a rock so heavy he cannot throw it, creating another uncreated being, ceasing to be God...cannot think a thought that does not have a certain duration or interval...His mind is always active and cannot stop thinking (sequence vs thinking every possible thought for trillions of years all at once...that negates His and our history). In the same vein, God cannot know the unknowable future free minor choices of man. He cannot travel forward or backward in time. He cannot undo a past event. Once sequence takes place it cannot be altered (except in Sci-fi movies).

Continuing with the original idea that the future is partly open and partly closed:

Numbers 16:20-35  Israel sinned under Korah's leadership. (v.21) "Separate yourselves from this assembly (why?) so I CAN put an end to them (when?) at once." Moses and Aaron pleaded with the Lord (v.22). In response, the Lord MODIFIED His judgment and gave the people a choice (v.26) (new change/intervention in time and sequence...either passage is literal or figurative).

The passage (and many similar ones) represents God modifying His expressed intentions in response to prayer. IF all of the future is exhaustively settled in God's mind, however, God's declared intention to 'consume' the whole congregation could not have been sincere. He never REALLY intended to do it, for He supposedly ALWAYS foreknew He WOULDN't do it. Despite good motives to defend the classical view of foreknowledge, it has the unfortunate consequenceof depicting God as one who toys with us, using idle threats He has NO intention of following through.

Scripture properly interpreted + godly reason= truth.