PRE OR MID-TRIB?

[MikeE]

There are many disagreements within the modern Body of Christ- the Church- pertaining to doctrines and theology. But this is nothing new. History shows that even in Christ's time, there were divisions.

One of the first was over the different opinions held by John the Baptizers disciples and Jesus (Matt. 9:14-17), over fasting. Many simillar , non-salvation type beliefs have always been a part of Christianity, it seems. Hence, the myriad of denominations and sects, both orthodox and reformed.

This is not necessarilly a bad thing. Unless of course it leads to exclusionary teachings, ascetecism, or cult-like behaviour on the part of it's doctrinal adherants. Generally speaking, lighthearted debate between two Believers concerning, oh say, a literal seven day creation or the rapture, can be mutually edifying as well as enlightening, in many aspects. It's only when the conversation becomes confrontational or contentious that we need to back away and agree to disagree.

For instance, even amongst Pentecostals, there are two different camps concerning just when the afore mentioned 'Rapture' will occur. On the one side, you have the 'pre-tribbers.' In a nutshell, they interpret Scripture- most notably 1 Thess. 4:17 & Rev. 3:10- as support for their position.

What this doctrine basically is giving us is a more 'optomistic'view of the Tribulation. That being, that before anything really horrendous can happen to the church, Christ rescues us from it. There is no suffering, death, or persecution, inflicted upon us by the Antichrist because we will be long gone before any of it even begins.

It's a nice thought. Afterall, who among us really is looking forward to being constsntly on the run? Always in hiding, and in fear from an evil force hell-bent on brutally and viciously tearing you limb-from-limb, just because you remained faithful to Jesus and refused to take the mark of the beast? Not many, I'm sure.

Bottom line? I feel it's one possible way it could happen, and there are many more Scriptures than the two mentioned that seem to point in the direction of it happening this way.

But wait...

On to the other camp, the 'mid-tribbers.' These folks believe, and rightfully so, we will be 'raptured' at the mid-point of the seven year period of the Tribulation.

This theory is a bit more pessimistic than the pre-trib one, in that the church will have to endure three-and-a-half years of being "handed over" to the Antichrist. Of being hunted, violently persecuted, imprisoned, and murdered, for not bowing our knee to him.

During this time, we will be considered crimminals, haters, and heretics, because he will have taken over the world's governments and also proclaimed himself to be god (rev. 13:7 & Dan. 9:27).

This view is also very plausable, perhaps even a bit more so than that of a pre-trib Rapture because there seems to be far more Scriptures alluding to this scenario than any other. Plus, we are still taken out before God's full wrath upon the earth is un-leashed.

However, at the end of the day (Pardon the pun!), we must ask ourselves some very important questions about all of this: Will our speculations and beliefs on when Christ comes back for us, cause anyone to loose their salvation? Is our "blessed hope" (Titus 2:13-14) diminished in any way if there is a disagreement in this matter? Isn't it better if we just give glory and praise to God that one day (SOON!), we will all be "caught up" into His presence- no matter WHEN that will be?

I know what my answers are to these questions, what are yours? and if we don't agree...does it really matter in the end?

Until next time, God bless...

In Christ,

MikeE

2 Tim. 4:1-4

[cjrose]

Christopher_John

If we can clearly identify the signing of the peace treaty with Israel, then witness the start of the tribulation, their is no doubt, based on our knowledge of Eschatology, that we can now determine exactly when the Mid Tribulation Rapture will ocurr, 3/12 years from the signing of the peace treaty, or 7 years following the signing of the treaty (Post Tribulation), thus taking away the mystery of Gods word that he will "come in a day when he looketh not for him". So the Mid and Post rapture view goes against Christ teaching us that we will not know when he comes.

CJ - can you direct me to a passage anywhere in the Bible that describes a

[LadyGunivere]

amen sistah!!!

[MikeE]

Give me some time and I'll find it somewhere even though it doesn't actually say "rapture" but I would imagine that over the centuries the words "and we shall be lifted up after those who have gone before us to be with our Lord" now please don't disect that. I do not believe we who are believers will be here when the tribulation period exists. We may experience some of the devestation that is already taking place. The world is at war, there are nuclear weapons, our water is becoming polluted, but we may also experience the days growing darker and earthquakes. But I do believe in a literal seven year tribulation period but we will be gone when those trumpets sound and the hoofbeats grow louder and louder and then God shall pour out His wrath upon the earth.

Okay - let me know when you find such a passage

Edited September 4, 2006 by MikeE

[Guest LadyC]

Give me some time and I'll find it somewhere even though it doesn't actually say "rapture" but I would imagine that over the centuries the words "and we shall be lifted up after those who have gone before us to be with our Lord" now please don't disect that. I do not believe we who are believers will be here when the tribulation period exists. We may experience some of the devestation that is already taking place. The world is at war, there are nuclear weapons, our water is becoming polluted, but we may also experience the days growing darker and earthquakes. But I do believe in a literal seven year tribulation period but we will be gone when those trumpets sound and the hoofbeats grow louder and louder and then God shall pour out His wrath upon the earth.

Okay - let me know when you find such a passage

[LadyGunivere]

no offense WSB.....you seem sure of yourself and when God is coming....Can you tell me what time and how?

[MikeE]

Okay, horizoneast, what exactly is your point with this line of questions? In Christ,

MikeE

2 Tim.4:1-4

Well MikeE my original post was addressed to Christopher_John and it appears to me that all the speculations under consideration, i.e.,

[jaisum]

i know ive posted this before, but it is the Truth of the Gospel and of the Rapture(s), so here goes again

Peace

Jai

WELCOME TO THE

TRUTH OF BIBLE PROPHECY- THERE ARE 2 RAPTURES

"Thou Daniel; shut up this book

And seal the words of this Prophecy

Until the time of the end;

When knowledge and travel have

greatly increased."

{Dan:12:4}.

Two Raptures is The Hidden Prophecy in

The Book of Daniel

To Be Revealed in The Last Days.

Two Raptures Breaks This Ancient Seal

And Completes This Prophetic Puzzle!

TWO RAPTURES:

SYNOPSIS (1986)

The First Rapture Happens BEFORE

The Great Tribulation Starts.

(Matt:24:40/ Rev:3:10/ Rev:4:4/ Rev:5:9)

This is The True Escape that JESUS promised to all who are "accounted worthy" (Lu:21:36), who "Watch and Are Ready" (Matt:24:44), Who "Bear Fruit To Completion" (Lu:8:15),who "Abide In His Love" (Jn:15),Who Follow Him in "Spirit and Truth" (Jn:10:27),who "Love One Another" (Jn:13:34). To those who "Keep His Word With Perseverence" (Rev:3:10)

The Second Rapture is The Resurrection and Happens DURING The Tribulation. This Is The Last Chance For All Who Were Left Behind, "Lukewarm Christians and Everyone Else, To Repent and Make Heaven As A Tribulation Saint and Beheaded Martyr.

(1 Thes:4:16, 1 Cor:15:52, Rev:14:14).

* TWO RAPTURES * IS THE KEY TO UNDERSTANDING REVELATION AND ITS PROPHETIC CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS:....* FIRST RAPTURE * (FOR THE WORTHY BELIEVERS) REV:4 & 5.....ANTICHRIST REVEALED (REV:6:2).....ANTICHRIST CONVERTS THE VATICAN & ALL PROTESTANT CHURCHES, MORMONS TO THE CHURCH OF SATAN- MYSTERY BABYLON- SEX CHURCH (REV:17)....144,000 PROPHETS (REV:7) .....COMET-- ASTEROID IMPACT - WORMWOOD (REV:8).....WORLD WAR III (REV:9)....TWO PROPHETS/ WITNESSES (REV:11).... ANTICHRIST LEADS GLOBAL HOLOCAUST- 666....(REV:13)..... SLAUGHTER OF CHRISTIANS LASTS 1260 DAYS....40 & 2 MONTHS... 1260 DAYS..... TRUMPET SOUNDS... * SECOND RAPTURE * HAPPENS... "THE RESURRECTION".... (REV:14:14) (1 THES:4:16) (1 COR:15:52).......WRATH OF GOD UPON THE WORLD (REV:16)....SECOND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST.... BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON...(REV 19).... MILLENNIAL REIGN...(REV:19 & 20)..... WARNINGS TO US ALL... REV:21:8...REV:22:14-18..... SATAN DEFEATED.....GOD WINS.....AMEN!!!...

Many Churches including Baptist, Assemblies of God, Calvalry Temple and Pentecostal teach us that we are "accounted worthy" of Heaven and a Rapture (escape) By The "Blood of Christ" and by His Blood alone.

Yet in The Gospels, JESUS tells us that our being "accounted worthy" to Escape The Tribulation depends upon our actions, by what we do and nothing at all to do with His Blood.

THE FOLLOWING IS WHO WILL BE RAPTURED AND WHO WILL BE LEFT BEHIND IN JESUS OWN WORDS, NOT IN THE RANTINGS AND DOGMA OF MEN.

[1]

COSMIC ESCAPE

" But as the Days of Noah were,

so also will the coming of the

Son of Man be:

For as in the Days before the Flood

they were eating and drinking, marrying

and giving in marriage, until the DAY

that Noah entered-into the Ark;

"and they did know until the Flood

came and took them all away:

so also will the coming of the

Son of man be:

"Then, two men shall be in the field:

the one Taken and the other left"

Two women will be grinding at the mill:

the one Taken and the other left."

"Watch therefore for you do not

know what hour your Lord is coming."

MATT:24:37-42

[2]

THE WARNING

"Take heed to yourselves that your

hearts not be weighed- down with

carousing, drunkenness and the

cares of this life that the DAY will

come upon you unawares."

For as a snare, it shall come upon

all those who dwell upon the face

of the whole earth."

"Therefore watch and pray always,

that you are "Accounted Worthy"

to Escape all of these things which

shall come to pass, and stand before

the Son of Man."

LUKE:21:34-36

[3]

WORTHYNESS

" He who loves father or mother

more than Me is not worthy of Me.

"And he who loves son or daughter

more than Me is not worthy of Me.

"And he who does not deny himself,

take up his cross and follow Me is

not Worthy of Me."

MATT:10:37-38

[4]

BOOK OF REVELATION

"Because you have kept My

Word to Persevere, I will also

keep you from the hour of trial

which shall come upon the whole

world; to test those who dwell

upon the Earth."

(Rev:3:10)

THIS IS THE FIRST RAPTURE

THE RAPTURE OF THE WORTHY

JESUS TAUGHT THIS EVENT (ABOVE)

WILL HAPPEN BEFORE THE

GREAT TRIBULATION BEGINS

(Matt:24:40 = Rev:4:4).

This First Rapture is for The

Christians Who Are "Accounted Worthy"

To ESCAPE 666, The Judgment of The

Great tribulation to come.(Lu:21:36).

Only these Christians will be taken

To Heaven's Safety.

All other Believers who follow

The Dogmas of Men will be

Left Behind.

These worthy believers are the

"Five Wise Virgins who kept oil

in their lamps" and the "good and

faithful servants" in The End Times

Parables in The Gospel. (Matt:25).

The Worthy Christians are called

The Church of Philadelphia in The

Book of Revelation. (Rev:3:10)

God's Faithful Remnant.

LETTER PROPHECY

The First Rapture Event Will Be Called The Great Disappearance By The World Media.

THE SECOND RAPTURE

MID - TRIBULATION

This is The Rapture- Event that

Paul wrote of In His Letters

Found In The New Testament

This Is Really The Resurrection As Found In

1 THES:4:16-17, 1 COR:15:52 and

REV:14:14-16.

The Resurrection Happens

During The Tribulation

And Actually Ends

A 1260 Day Slaughter

Directed at Christians.

For All Believers Alive and Dead

Will Be Taken From The

Face Of Planet Earth!

"For the Lord Himself will descend

from heaven, with the Voice of the

Archangel and the Trump of God;

And the dead in Christ shall rise first."

"And those who are alive and remain

{survive} will be caught-away together

With them to meet the Lord in the air,

And so they shall always

Be with The Lord."

1 Thes:4:16-17

The Resurrection (Second Rapture) Is

The Last Chance For All To Repent

To Overcome Satan and their fears

And Earn Their Crown Of Life."

REV:2:10 or REV:3:10

[eric]

2 raptures?........ You have to be kidding.

[jaisum]

2 raptures?........ You have to be kidding.

There will be 2 Raptures. Jesus speaks of the first Rapture in Rev 3.10 and Luke 31.34-36, Matt 24.40-44, Matt 25 which is actually a parable showing the worthy Chrisitans are those that will be taken, and the unworthy foolish Chrisitans will be left-behind with the rest of the world during the Tribulation ( there are other verses which i can post later if you want?)

Pauls Rapture in 1 Thess 4.16-17 is the 2nd Rapture, a Mid-Trib Rapture 1260 days into the 7 year great Tribulaiton (times to coincide with the breaking the of the peace treaty in Dan 9.27 and that breaking happens in the middle of the 1260 period, and the ressurection of the 2 Witnessesin Rev 11.11-12 also happens after their 1260 day ministry Rev 11.3)

Pauls explains that the Harpazo he describes in 1 Thess 4.16-17 cannot and will not ahppen until the man of lawlessness -antichrist- has arrived on the scene in 2 Thess ch 2. studying 2 Thess it is clear that someone (intent on causing strife) wanted to cause panic into the Thessolonian church by reporting to them that the Harpazo had already happened. This is why Paul writes aanother letter to the church advising them not to be shaken or worried about this 'report' (2 Thess 2.-3) as this Rapture cannot happen until antichrist has arrived - 2 Thess 2.3-12 So the Rapture that Paul speaks of does not happen until the Great Tribulation starts... and it seems as though it will happen just before antichrist set himself up as god in the rebuilt Jewish Temple ( you can understand this by reading 2 Thess 2.3-12 with Dan 9.27)

But what bout the Escape Jesus mention several times, including Rev 3.10 and Luke 21.34-36? Well simply this escape is for a limited amount of Christians who walk in Spirit, Love and Truth. The wise Chrisitans as described in Matt 25.

Even in Revelations there are 2 instance of redeemd beleivers in front of God:

Rev 5.11. There are the elders who numbers are in ten thousand times ten thousand. These are thoses redemmed in the 1st. Pre-Trib Rapture, as this event happens before the opening of the Seals in Rev 6

Yet in Rev 7.9 we read of a number of people os great that NO ON COULD NUMBER. And then in Rev 7.14 we read that these are the saints who made it out of the GREAT TRIBULATION.

Its simple and clear; there are 2 Raptures. After the 2nd Rapture there are another 1260 days left, and in that time Antichrist will invade Israel and Jerusalem intent on breaking the Peace treaty and killing 2 thrids of the Jews. However 1 Third of the Jews will be bought to safety by Archangel Micheal for 1260 days (Daniel ch 12) until JEsus returns to destroy antichrist in the battle of armageddon and save the remnant of Jews (Rev 19, Zech 14)

God Bless

Jai