Guest liarsandmartyrs Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 So many post tribs believers, believe that the rapture will be in Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe." Rev 14:16 So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped. What so many people do not realize is that the book of revelation and many book sin the bible, do not neccessarily go into chronological order. One example is Chapter 7:9-17. The Multitude from the Great Tribulation. We know that the first half of Trib, is just called tribulation and the second half is described as the Great Tribluation. Why? Because it is at the second half that the persecution intensifies, going from bad to worse, or lesser to greater. Another example is the 2 Witness. They first appear in Chapter 11. But we knowthat they are to prophesy 1260 days. That would be, according to teh Jewish calendar, 3 1/2 years. But by the time we see them in Chapter 11, the chain of events show them appearing at around the middle of the tribulations 7 year period. We know this is not when they show up, because if this was the case, it would proove God as a liar, and God is not a man that He should lie. So it is simple commonsense that concludes not all things in the scripture run in chronological order. Dan. 12:1-2, Jo. 14:1-3,1 Cor. 15:52, Col. 3:4, 1 Thess. 1:10, 1 Thess. 4:16-17 These are verses that talks about the rapture of the church. Remeber that God does or says nothing in the O.T. that is not in the N.T. There are not 2 Raptures. Again if there were this would show God to be a liar. Does the scripture talk about a 2nd, 3rd, and or 4th or 5th Coming. NO! the Rapture happens while Antichrist is on the face of the earth, but not into power. If it did then again it would show God as a liar. Because it is His promise that He will keep us from that hour. It is my wonder to all those who believe in a mid, post , and a 2 part Rapture. Do you believe this because that is what somebody as told you? Or is it something you yourself have researched and discovered for yourself, before someone told you this. I am not trying to start an arguement here, we are all allowed our opinnions and equal time to present what we believe and why. I do ask that my question is answered in all honesty. I can agree to disagree. I myself, have studied the pre-trib rapture, post trib, and mid trib, all at the same time, when I can into the family of God. Scriptually, and spiritually this is what I have been shown to be right by the Holy Spirit. God Bless you all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaisum Posted October 21, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 16 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/29/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2006 There will be 2 Raptures. Jesus speaks of the first Rapture in Rev 3.10 and Luke 31.34-36, Matt 24.40-44, Matt 25 which is actually a parable showing the worthy Chrisitans are those that will be taken, and the unworthy foolish Chrisitans will be left-behind with the rest of the world during the Tribulation ( there are other verses which i can post later if you want?) Pauls Rapture in 1 Thess 4.16-17 is the 2nd Rapture, a Mid-Trib Rapture 1260 days into the 7 year great Tribulaiton (times to coincide with the breaking the of the peace treaty in Dan 9.27 and that breaking happens in the middle of the 1260 period, and the ressurection of the 2 Witnessesin Rev 11.11-12 also happens after their 1260 day ministry Rev 11.3) Pauls explains that the Harpazo he describes in 1 Thess 4.16-17 cannot and will not ahppen until the man of lawlessness -antichrist- has arrived on the scene in 2 Thess ch 2. studying 2 Thess it is clear that someone (intent on causing strife) wanted to cause panic into the Thessolonian church by reporting to them that the Harpazo had already happened. This is why Paul writes aanother letter to the church advising them not to be shaken or worried about this 'report' (2 Thess 2.-3) as this Rapture cannot happen until antichrist has arrived - 2 Thess 2.3-12 So the Rapture that Paul speaks of does not happen until the Great Tribulation starts... and it seems as though it will happen just before antichrist set himself up as god in the rebuilt Jewish Temple ( you can understand this by reading 2 Thess 2.3-12 with Dan 9.27) But what bout the Escape Jesus mention several times, including Rev 3.10 and Luke 21.34-36? Well simply this escape is for a limited amount of Christians who walk in Spirit, Love and Truth. The wise Chrisitans as described in Matt 25. Even in Revelations there are 2 instance of redeemd beleivers in front of God: Rev 5.11. There are the elders who numbers are in ten thousand times ten thousand. These are thoses redemmed in the 1st. Pre-Trib Rapture, as this event happens before the opening of the Seals in Rev 6 Yet in Rev 7.9 we read of a number of people os great that NO ON COULD NUMBER. And then in Rev 7.14 we read that these are the saints who made it out of the GREAT TRIBULATION. Its simple and clear; there are 2 Raptures. After the 2nd Rapture there are another 1260 days left, and in that time Antichrist will invade Israel and Jerusalem intent on breaking the Peace treaty and killing 2 thrids of the Jews. However 1 Third of the Jews will be bought to safety by Archangel Micheal for 1260 days (Daniel ch 12) until JEsus returns to destroy antichrist in the battle of armageddon and save the remnant of Jews (Rev 19, Zech 14) God Bless Jai In Mathew 25 there are three parables, the first being the 10 virgins (v.1-v.13) the second being the parable of the Talents (v.14-v.30) then the third which is the parable of the Sheep and Goats (v.31-v.46). Each of them pays particular attention to preparedness, works, rewards and condemnation. In each case the parables deal with the works of a Christian. Yes from the parable of the ten Virgins can one derive further evidence to support a Pre-Tribulation rapture because 5 are taken and 5 are left behind, but, the parable concentrates mainly on our works. The parable depicts 5 of the 10 virgins not being prepared for the return of the bride groom, although they did know He was coming. They leave to buy from those who sell, Christs blood was purchased by the Pharasees, they bought Him through the betrayal of Judas Iscariot, 30 pieces of silver, so the parable shows the 5 Virgins without good works (oil) heading out to purchase oil (do works for God) before the return of the the bride groom (Messiah) but it was too late. Not knowing when He would return, their works were fruitless and now are left out of the marriage, they did not have faith, believe, so therefore their works were accounted to them as unrighteousness. What is important in Prophecy is not knowing when these things will take place, but understanding that your faith must be so strong that each and every day you must be doing something for the Lord God. The message in the Parable of the 10 virgins is not to point out a Rapture, but to reinforce your faith. Only those who truly believe in Christ will have works deemed worthy by God. Believing in the Rapture will not get you "Raptured" only the truly faithful who do their works for God based on their faith will be Raptured. You can believe all you like in any type of Rapture, Pre, Mid, Post, you can come here to worthy and jump up and down all you like about it. The question is, are our belief's strong enough to get off our butts and do something for the Lord? which of the hungry did we feed today? to he or she that thirsted did we give drink? to those that needed clothing...who did we cover? to the homeless, who did we take in or give aid in finding refuge? of the sick whom did we comfort? (Mat. 25:34-46) The parable of the 10 virgins does carry weight for the Rapture but please read the last two parables, most importantly the parable of the sheep and goats. The teachings in these parables supercede the importance of the rapture and without fully understanding these teachings one cannot be Raptured. The first two parables teach us that Good Works come through faith. The 5 Virgins left behind can be equated to Mathew 7:21-23 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Comparing this to the Parable of the 10 Virgins in Mat. 25:10-12 10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. The importance of these parables is that we not just call upon the name of the Lord to be saved, but that we truly believe in Him and only the works of the truly faithful will be accounted for...anyone can call upon the name of the Lord but in order to be saved if you don't truly have faith you won't perform any works for God, for the true believers, your faith in Christ will lead you to good works regardless how difficult you may find it to do them, because you will be doing them for God and not for yourself. Doing the will of God. Revelation 7:9 does not say that the Tribulation Saints were Raptured. These are the Saints who achieved Salvation during the Tribulation via the Ministry of the 144,000. Keeping in mind that many will refuse the mark of the beast and be put to death for the testimony of Jesus. Once the Tribulation begins the Tribulation Saints will have to experience a physical death in order to be saved because they missed the Rapture...they will have only two choices, accept the mark of the beast or die. Those who refuse the mark will not deny Christ even if death is their only option demonstrating their full faith in Christ. Absent from the body, present with the Lord 2 Cor. 5:8 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Luke 23:43 43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise There is no second Rapture from what I can understand. Peace CJ HI 1st Rapture= Pre Tribulation 2nd Rapture (which ties in with Ressurection ) is what Paul speaks of in 1 Thess 4.16-17. If there is no 2nd Rapture, how does God deal with all the believers who are alive during the middle of the Tribulation? DOes He leave them on earth for His Wrath? I dont think so... Peace & God Bless Jai Patel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest liarsandmartyrs Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Sorry jaisum The rapture is the gathering of believers in Christ, to Himself, to be as Elijah was caught up to heaven. This 2nd Rapture you are talking about, is the ressurrection of the dead for judgement. They are 2 completely different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted October 22, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2006 Okay, horizoneast, what exactly is your point with this line of questions? Is it to cast doubt on God's Word? To cause confusion by asking for something, i.e. your "passage," which any good Berean knows doesn't exist in the body of Scripture in that order? Or, is the only point you have, the one on top of your head? "Rapture" is a Greek word found in the original texts, which were written in that language. It means to be 'caught up,' or 'lifted up.' You will not find it in any english language Bibles, though I'm sure it is in those written in the original Greek. As for the "seven-year tribulation," the book of Daniel in the OT, chapter 9, verse 24, tells us it will be a seven year period. The "coming of Christ" is spoken of by Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:27, and again in Revelation 27:7, as well as taught in the body of the NT writings. Are you that "empty headed (Raca)?" If, on the other hand, you truely are confused by the Rapture, might I suggest a Bible with study notes in it? Or try reading the book 'Bruce and Stan's Guide To Bible Prophecy." It's simple, easy to understand, and gets to the point clearly. Either, or both, might prove to be enlightening in your search for answers. God bless... In Christ, MikeE 2 Tim.4:1-4 Why is it necessary to disparage another simply because they ask questions? It really isn't the Christian way to go about helping someone to understand the bible and it's interpretations, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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