Total Depravity

[Guest shadow2b]

-Please be aware that I only found this site by doing a search for dinosaurs and the Bible. I never said that I agree with all parts of the site--I don't.

But I am curious to see why you make this statement:

QUOTE 

From some of your posts I have seen you quote them almost verbatim

Can you show me where, because I don't quote websites at all from my recollection.

-okey dokey i kin agree with that search fer dinnysoors & da BIBLE-----I will go back to the site & see if i can find the statements i "think"??you quoted----no big deal tho-----summtymes mah brane

-takes a vacation with a one-way ticket-unbeknownst ta me??????-----Gary--

[Guest charlie]

Ronald you said:

<<It's called, though I don't have the actual verses in front of me, The Age of Accountability. A child has no true knowledge of right or wrong until they get much older. When you become old enough to know the difference, then is when the Heaven/Hell choice begins. >>

You'll never have the actual verses in front of you. The "age of accountability for baptism doctrine" is man-made and wasn't done until the anabaptists began it in the 15th century. It had more to do with politics than scripture and is a tradition not practiced by most protestant denominations, who continue to do infant baptisms.

Anyway back to the original question. In my opinion babies that die or are aborted do not go to hell. Though death for mankind was a consequence of Adam's sin, only Adam will be held accountable for biting into that apple and disobeying God. Just as a baby who acquires AIDs from it's mother has not sinned, it still suffers from the sin of the mother. It will not be held accountable for her sin on judgement day. Nor, imo, will any of us including babies be held accountable for Adam's sin on the judgement day, yet we will all die because of it. So therefore, if a baby dies it has no sin, it is innocent and will not go to hell whether it has been baptized or not. That's just what I see when I read the scriptures and evaluate the entire "theme" of mercy that is conveyed in the Bible.

[godrulz]

Charlie: concise and cogent

[Guest mcm42]

There is no age of accountablity. If there was it would be specified, and since it is not we do not know how old we can be before we are accountable.

Sin nature is transferred by birth. For ALL have sinned and fall short. This leaves no one, even babies out.

So do babies have a sin nature? How can they go to heaven? This is why I'm reformed, because I don't believe that "acceptance or belief" is what saves you. I believe these are all a product of true salvation.

Since God's gift is given, without us doing anything at all, then it stands to reason that he can rightfully, and justly accept babies who have not made a decision.

Don't be so arrogant as to think that your profession, prayer, baptism, or even your "acceptance" gets you saved. First, God chose and saved you, then you professed, accepted, prayed and were baptized (in the spirit). You, as dead in your transgressions could not of done any of this on your own, it was by the Spirit's calling you.

Babies go to heaven on the same basis you and I go to heaven, on the precious blood of Jesus Christ, with no works.

God Bless hope this helps!

[godrulz]

Do not confuse the grounds of salvation (reason for which= grace, atonement, resurrection) and the conditions of salvation (not without which= repentance, faith, continuance). Salvation is a moral love relationship, not a metaphysical (substance, passive) change in our being. Likewise, sin is a wrong moral choice, not an inherited substance back of the will.

[Catsmeow]

Wow! Some excellent responses to clarify this difficult topic. All are well expressed and worthy of contemplation.

[Guest mcm42]

Do not confuse the grounds of salvation (reason for which= grace, atonement, resurrection) and the conditions of salvation (not without which= repentance, faith, continuance). Salvation is a moral love relationship, not a metaphysical (substance, passive) change in our being. Likewise, sin is a wrong moral choice, not an inherited substance back of the will.

There is none righteous no not one...(Rom 3)

Eph 2:3-"Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest"

Eph 2:8-"For by grace you have been saved through faith, that (Faith) not of yourselves it is the gift of God." You don't "faith" on your own... it is a gift of God. Otherwise it would be of ourselves, and men could boast. Rather we are saved through grace, by the gift of faith. Each one who believes has been given a very special gift, the ability to believe.

You will not find a man in scripture who saved himself, without the spirit. A man who first believed, and then got saved. Rather God saved him, and the result, was works.

James 2 is a good example, show me your faith without works and I will show my faith by my works. We show are faith, we don't get our faith by works, rather the works are the culmination of the Spirit being changed.

All this to say that babies don't have to do anything to be saved, they must be accepted by God, through grace, and given the gift of faith. Basically they need to be chosen. (See Eph 1)

Let's not decieve ourselves into thinking that we were ever, even in the womb innocent. We never were.

[Catsmeow]

He makes some good points..I tend to be more leaning toward reformed theology because I believe that God alone grants us a measure of faith according to His riches and glory.

He is totally sovereign and likewise His decisions...

[godrulz]

Babies are saved based on their non-rejection of Jesus Christ. They have not made wrong moral choices, so they are not culpable, accountable, responsible yet. They cannot believe or reject Christ yet (do not have intellectual or moral faculties to do so). There is provision in the atonement to save the mentally handicapped from birth, abortions, or babies.

God does not send some babies to hell and others to heaven based on arbitrary election. This would contradict His moral law (turth/justice) and nature (holiness).

We form our nature and character as we sin or obey (leading to a destiny). It is not passively inherited.

[Guest mcm42]

God rulz, I need scripture backing...

Eph 2:3-"Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest"

Please explain this verse in your veiw...

I'm well aware of the ongoing conflict in this area and do not want to divide, only to promote healthy study of the Word.

Thanks for replying thus far