Total Depravity

[Guest mcm42]

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

here's another to deal with...

[godrulz]

Translations that translate the Greek word 'flesh' as 'sinful nature' (NIV) are smuggling in the 'original sin' Augustinian bias. The verse does not explicityl say when the nature was formed (womb or as wrong choices are made). We all become sinners (you say we are born sinners, confusing sin as a substance, rather than lawlessness/wrong moral choice) and form a fleshly nature throughout our lives (choice=>habit=> nature/character=> destiny). As such, we are by nature objects of his wrath (sinners, even from an early age we are fleshly/selfish ignoring God). The context is talking about responsible moral agents, not innocent babies.

Ps. 51:5 is a Hebraism 'sinful at birth'= as long as he could remember...

cf. Ps. 71:6 "from my birth I have relied on you" (babies do not pray or trust God with their first breath)...as long as he could remember, he trusted God...v. 17...since my youth you have taught me...

[godrulz]

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

here's another to deal with...

I would suggest this is a corporate chosing of the intended Body of Christ to be a people of God, rather than the election of individuals by name before they even exist. Those who believe will become part of the Church, the Body of Christ, planned from the beginning of time (not that some individuals are predestined to heaven or hell arbitrarily).

[Guest mcm42]

God Rulz

Still waiting for biblical proof on the fact that we are not sinful in the womb...

Also, could someone ever (other than Christ) live a perfect life, seeing as how we are all innocent to start with?

[Guest mcm42]

I would suggest this is a corporate chosing of the intended Body of Christ to be a people of God, rather than the election of individuals by name before they even exist. Those who believe will become part of the Church, the Body of Christ, planned from the beginning of time (not that some individuals are predestined to heaven or hell arbitrarily).

if it's just a chosing of the intended body of Christ to be a people why does it talk about the sprinkling of blood? and why does it say that He has Caused us to be born again through a living hope?

[tsth]

Grace is revealed and given, but not forced! One is given the message and gift of salvation, yet still is held accountable for the acceptance part.

Job 34:31 Surely it is meet to be said unto God, I have borne chastisement, I will not offend any more: 32 That which I see not teach thou me: if I have done iniquity, I will do no more. 33 Should it be according to thy mind? he will recompense it, whether thou refuse, or whether thou choose; and not I: therefore speak what thou knowest.

Job 36:1 Elihu also proceeded and said: 2 "Bear with me a little, and I will show you That there are yet words to speak on God's behalf. 3 I will fetch my knowledge from afar; I will ascribe righteousness to my Maker. 4 For truly my words are not false; One who is perfect in knowledge is with you.

5 "Behold, God is mighty, but despises no one; He is mighty in strength of understanding. 6 He does not preserve the life of the wicked, But gives justice to the oppressed. 7 He does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous; But they are on the throne with kings, For He has seated them forever, And they are exalted. 8 And if they are bound in fetters, Held in the cords of affliction, 9 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions-- That they have acted defiantly. 10 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. 11 If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. 12 But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge. 13 "But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; They do not cry for help when He binds them. 14 They die in youth, And their life ends among the perverted persons.

15 He delivers the poor in their affliction, And opens their ears in oppression. 16 "Indeed He would have brought you out of dire distress, Into a broad place where there is no restraint; And what is set on your table would be full of richness. 17 But you are filled with the judgment due the wicked; Judgment and justice take hold of you. 18 Because there is wrath, beware lest He take you away with one blow; For a large ransom would not help you avoid it. 19 Will your riches, Or all the mighty forces, Keep you from distress? 20 Do not desire the night, When people are cut off in their place. 21 Take heed, do not turn to iniquity, For you have chosen this rather than affliction. 22 "Behold, God is exalted by His power; Who teaches like Him?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest mcm42]

9 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions-- That they have acted defiantly. 10 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. 11 If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. 12 But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

The three friends of job are not necessarily accurate. Here Elihu is showing his belief that if you do good, good things will happen, if you do bad, bad things will happen. Something we know is not true. For God causes the rain to fall on the righteous and the wicked.

[tsth]

The three friends of job are not necessarily accurate. Here Elihu is showing his belief that if you do good, good things will happen, if you do bad, bad things will happen. Something we know is not true. For God causes the rain to fall on the righteous and the wicked.

That is not correct theology. Elihu is NOT one of the 3. Elihu gives Job the Truth regarding "repentance".

In His Truth,

Suzanne

[tsth]

15 He delivers the poor in their affliction, And opens their ears in oppression. 16 "Indeed He would have brought you out of dire distress, Into a broad place where there is no restraint; And what is set on your table would be full of richness. 17 But you are filled with the judgment due the wicked; Judgment and justice take hold of you. 18 Because there is wrath, beware lest He take you away with one blow; For a large ransom would not help you avoid it. 19 Will your riches, Or all the mighty forces, Keep you from distress? 20 Do not desire the night, When people are cut off in their place. 21 Take heed, do not turn to iniquity, For you have chosen this rather than affliction. 22 "Behold, God is exalted by His power; Who teaches like Him?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest mcm42]

1 Then Elihu continued and said,...

4 "I will answer you,

And your friends with you.

I stand corrected