More on Jesus camps

[apothanein kerdos]

They compare themselves to islamic extremists, referring to non-Christians as "the enemy", and in doing so basically place belief in Christ on the same level as any other religion....well except that all others are "the enemy". This does nothing to help our case that Christianity is different and valid over and against any other philosophy or religion out there. The sad thing is, their brand of "Christianity" isn't all that different than radical islam. Swap out the name of their god and change the lyrics to a few chants and you've almost got the same thing.

We don't need our children to have "experiences" with the Holy Spirit, we need our children learning to surrender to the Holy Spirit even when they don't "feel" Him there. But they mimmick what they see adults doing. Since the majority of Western Christianity is filled with hedonistic believers who worship worship more than they worship God, we shouldn't be surprised that this is what the children think they're supposed to do. Muster up a few tears, wave your hands around, shout and cry and you'll make mommy and daddy so proud that you love the Lord. Nevermind training our kids to serve one another, not to look down on the poor, not to be unkind to their siblings. Nevermind teaching our kids to go without and sacrifice. Oh no, let's give them everything they want, feed their empty selves and then just send them to "Jesus Camp" so they can learn "expressive worship!" Woo hoo! In a few years, these will be the same kids turning out books like "Your Best Life Now!" and "The Prayer of Jabez". Or even worse, they will have abandoned their faith altogether beause emotional highs never last.

I feel sorry for these kids. They are being lied to. Because when the reality of life sets in; when they don't get good grades or get into the college they wanted, when their unsaved friends challenge their faith with questions they can't answer, when their parents divorce or they lose a loved one in a tragic way....then it's not going to matter how many summers they spent at "Jesus Camp". That's when they're going to question their faith and realize they may as well have believed in Buddha or Allah just the same, because they won't have the answers they need to sustain them. They will have learned to respond to everything life throws them with their hearts, but their minds will be malnourished and confused.

Excellent post

Here's a challenge...who can come up with the most verses for either view. I"ll see if I can find enough verses to support my view that we should train up, that is, teach rationally, a child in God, and then whoever can find verses saying we should have our children experience God and downplay the intellect.

[nebula]

C'mon, AK.

How many times do I have to tell you I'm not downplaying intellect?

I just grieve over excitement over God and such being treated like rubbish.

A scholar like you may not need the Holy Spirit to whack you over the head to get your attention, but not everyone is so scholarly inclined, and scholarship doesn't minister to pain, and scholarship doesn't change a 14-year old orphan growing up in the city streets who expects to be dead by age 18 (because that's the way of the street). [i am thinking of specific person in my brother's youth group - the most rebellious of the group, the most hardened - and what it took for him to receive Christ as Lord - and what it's going to take to keep him alive now that his drug-dealing "buddies" don't like how he's changed. I'm ot making this up.]

I fully agree they need to be discipled and trained and versed in the Word.

But Pentecost wasn't an intellectual excercise, you know. Nor was the Resurrection.

Jesus gave the Scriptures to the two disciples on the Road to Emmaus.

But He just gave Himself to Mary Magdalene.

Cornelius' house got both sholarship and experience (what you call "feeling").

BTW - have you ever read the book The Chosen?

[apothanein kerdos]

"The Chosen".....Chaim Potok's book?

If you think that about scholarship then you don't have the first idea what scholarship is. I suggest you get into the writings of Schaeffer.

And Os Guinness

and Udo Middlemann

and JP Moreland

and Michael Wittmer

and Mark Matlock

and Nancy Pearcey

and William Dembski

[nebula]

"The Chosen".....Chaim Potok's book?

If you think that about scholarship then you don't have the first idea what scholarship is. I suggest you get into the writings of Schaeffer.

I don't remember the author, but it's about the Jewish boys.

And no, my point of the book had nothing to do with scholarship.

You really should not jump to conclusions like that, brother.

What I wanted to ask you was if you remembered the reason the rabbi gave for why he never spoke to his son?

[Smalcald]

What are the specific criticisms about these camps? Is it just that ANY Pentecostal youth rally or youth camp would be criticized? I went to church camp it was great, I mean it was better than what I could have been doing during the Summer. I couldn't get the download on my old slow dial up connection and old computer so is there something there I am missing?

I say anytime kids are fired up about Christ and as long as it is not heretical, what is the problem?

I don't like overly emotional and manipulative alter calls to teenagers and children however.

[nebula]

I couldn't get the download on my old slow dial up connection and old computer so is there something there I am missing?

It shows children zealous for the Lord.

[apothanein kerdos]

And no, my point of the book had nothing to do with scholarship.

I know, I was refering to your absurd comment that academics and scholarship cannot help a person on the streets. If this is your idea of academics I would advocate you have no idea what true academic scholarship is, and have not studied it from the scripture.

Have you read the novel "The Flight of Peter Fromm"? If so, do you remember what happens to the young Pentecostal lad?

I say anytime kids are fired up about Christ and as long as it is not heretical, what is the problem?

I don't like overly emotional and manipulative alter calls to teenagers and children however.

It lacks any form of intellect that will sustain them into their adult years, and therefore allows for heresy if not heretical itself.

[Smalcald]

Hmmm,

I don't know. I mean it is camp for pete's sake, it is supposed to be fun and it is for kids, it is not supposed to be summer school. Certainly this is not the whole picture in our spiritual journey, and maybe that is the problem.

What I mean is that the instances where I have seen the problem you bring up is when there is no Christian grounding or instruction taking place in the home nor in an ongoing religious education effort conducted by the young person's congregation. These are definitely needed also I would agree with that.

I just don

[apothanein kerdos]

I just don

[Smalcald]

I agree with some of your points.

If the camp is all there is, or if the camp itself is devoid of any decent instruction in the Word, I can see the problem.

Of course I went to Lutheran camps, they were devoid of any emotion, so this was not a problem. I think Nebula can vouch for that