It is not wrong for Gods servants to be wealthy!!

[apothanein kerdos]

Proof, schmoof. I choose to believe it

And suddenly everything you have posted on this board makes much more sense in light of this revelation...."proof schmoof"?

If that is your approach to scripture, how can you be sure of anything?

[Floatingaxe]

Proof, schmoof. I choose to believe it

And suddenly everything you have posted on this board makes much more sense in light of this revelation...."proof schmoof"?

If that is your approach to scripture, how can you be sure of anything?

That is my approach to your badgering. My posts are fine.

[Smalcald]

I did see the conflict in the thread. People just choose to misunderstand. I am not about to answer to every little point. My view was in my own post. I do believe, however, that God does desire to prosper us. His people in the past have been the ones given wealth.

Rather than keep to such a narrow view concerning monetary wealth, I choose to express how God wants us all to prosper in every area as His people on earth. It is His desire and pleasure.

Well I think God does desire good things for us.

But there is no scriptural evidence that God's people have been the one's given wealth compared with other tribes and peoples. Indeed sometimes the Nation of Israel was blessed, sometimes they were slaves, and sometimes they wandered in the Wilderness. Even when they were given the Land all was not well all of the time. Kind of like life in general. Often evil people prospered in material wealth greatly in scripture. Our Lord and Savior were not materially wealthy (regardless of what the hucksters say), scripture says otherwise.

The danger I think is that we should care about this life and our material possessions here on this earth, that somehow those things are important. Paul says those who desire to be rich fall into a snare and a trap. God's Word goes on to tell us that having food and clothing, with these we should be content. So any sort of obsession about gaining wealth or about God "blessing us" with wealth I think is not scriptural. Some are rich, some are poor, some work very very hard and get very rich (good for them), some work very hard and remain with little material wealth.

I just think it is dangerous to believe that people with low incomes just don't have enough faith, or didn't plant enough seeds by making the televangelist gifts. It really is one step away from an Amway scheme, actually even worse than Amway at least they are honest about their materialism. We are not believers so we can engage in some sort of material transaction with Christ, the phrase I have heard is that "prayers go up, and blessings rain down". Well the Word says that we should be honored to get the right to suffer and die for the sake of Christ and His word, I doubt this is the blessing these guys are praying for.

[Kabowd]

Proof, schmoof. I choose to believe it

And suddenly everything you have posted on this board makes much more sense in light of this revelation...."proof schmoof"?

If that is your approach to scripture, how can you be sure of anything?

That is my approach to your badgering. My posts are fine.

How is it "badgering" when someone asks you to defend your statements?

This explains why you become sarcastic and attack people instead of addressing their questions, it's because you see being questioned as being "badgered". In every topic where you are challenged to support your statements, you perceive this to be badgering or in one topic threatened to "report" me for being so "argumentative" lolol.

Instead, why not rise to the challenge and respond maturely with the reasons why you believe as you do? It's an honest question. Are you witholding your reasons out of stubbornness? Or are you too proud to admit that you don't have valid reasons? As fellow believers, it is our duty to hold one another accountable. Therefore, when we make statements and claim them to be biblically based, we should be ready to support these statements with Scripture. When someone challenges us, we should see it as an opportunity to grow in our faith and become even more firmly rooted in the truth. If we are shown to be wrong, we should be humble enough to admit it and receive the correction. This is the whole idea behind "iron sharpening iron".

So, in light of this and in light of the comments you've made in this topic, I want to know if you do or do not support the "prosperity" doctrine? Why or why not?

[Fiosh]

I did see the conflict in the thread. People just choose to misunderstand. I am not about to answer to every little point. My view was in my own post. I do believe, however, that God does desire to prosper us. His people in the past have been the ones given wealth.

Rather than keep to such a narrow view concerning monetary wealth, I choose to express how God wants us all to prosper in every area as His people on earth. It is His desire and pleasure.

Well I think God does desire good things for us.

But there is no scriptural evidence that God's people have been the one's given wealth compared with other tribes and peoples. Indeed sometimes the Nation of Israel was blessed, sometimes they were slaves, and sometimes they wandered in the Wilderness. Even when they were given the Land all was not well all of the time. Kind of like life in general. Often evil people prospered in material wealth greatly in scripture. Our Lord and Savior were not materially wealthy (regardless of what the hucksters say), scripture says otherwise.

The danger I think is that we should care about this life and our material possessions here on this earth, that somehow those things are important. Paul says those who desire to be rich fall into a snare and a trap. God's Word goes on to tell us that having food and clothing, with these we should be content. So any sort of obsession about gaining wealth or about God "blessing us" with wealth I think is not scriptural. Some are rich, some are poor, some work very very hard and get very rich (good for them), some work very hard and remain with little material wealth.

I just think it is dangerous to believe that people with low incomes just don't have enough faith, or didn't plant enough seeds by making the televangelist gifts. It really is one step away from an Amway scheme, actually even worse than Amway at least they are honest about their materialism. We are not believers so we can engage in some sort of material transaction with Christ, the phrase I have heard is that "prayers go up, and blessings rain down". Well the Word says that we should be honored to get the right to suffer and die for the sake of Christ and His word, I doubt this is the blessing these guys are praying for.

Well said, Smalcald! Amen, brother.

I believe it was St. Therese of Lisieux who said, "God gives me whatever I want, because I want whatever He gives".

She also said, "Preoccupation with self separates modern men and women from God, from their fellow human beings and ultimately from themselves. We must relearn to forget ourselves, to contemplate a God who draws us out of ourselves and to serve others as the ultimate expression of selfhood."

[billie]

I believe it was St. Therese of Lisieux who said, "God gives me whatever I want, because I want whatever He gives".

Amen St. Therese for saying it, and amen Fiosh for quoting her!

This is the answer to the "Prosperity Movement" in some circles of Christianity. It's also the answer to people who believe poverty equals holiness.

It's all God's anyway, and He controls it all. When we're in true submission to Him, we will desire only His will for our lives, in the area of money as well. If He chooses to bless us monetarily, we should be grateful and use it to bless others. If we're in times of lack, we must trust Him.

All good things come from Him.

[Fiosh]

I believe it was St. Therese of Lisieux who said, "God gives me whatever I want, because I want whatever He gives".

Amen St. Therese for saying it, and amen Fiosh for quoting her!

This is the answer to the "Prosperity Movement" in some circles of Christianity. It's also the answer to people who believe poverty equals holiness.

It's all God's anyway, and He controls it all. When we're in true submission to Him, we will desire only His will for our lives, in the area of money as well. If He chooses to bless us monetarily, we should be grateful and use it to bless others. If we're in times of lack, we must trust Him.

All good things come from Him.

Very well put, billie! And Paul agrees with you.

"Not that I say this because of need, for I have learned, in whatever situation I find myself, to be self-sufficient.

I know indeed how to live in humble circumstances; I know also how to live with abundance. In every circumstance and in all things I have learned the secret of being well fed and of going hungry, of living in abundance and of being in need.

I have the strength for everything through him who empowers me."

(Philippians 4: 11-13)

[Guest shiloh357]

The Torah (first five books) are the seedbed of all biblical theology. The Bible is a book of progressive revelation. The prophets and ecclesiastical writings build on the Torah, and the New Testament is itself written out of OT knowledge. So everything the Bible has to say about money is grown up out of what was planted in the seedbed.

There is not ONE commandment or set of instructions in the Torah about how to gain personal riches. There is not ONE promise in the Torah that anyone can claim applies to personal, monetary prosperity. All promises of prosperity are made to national Israel. There is nothing that promises that each individual Israelite would be overflowing in abundance. Israel as a nation was promised to be exalted above all the nations and blessed with abundance, but not each individual Israelite. The promises however, were not based upon the fact that they were Israelites. They were based upon their obedience to the Torah given at Sinai.

The Torah is based upon Love. It is a picture of love. All of the Torah and the prophets hang upon only two commandments namely, to love God with all of our heart, soul and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. If this were walked out in a practical way by everyone, we could wipe out poverty in a week or so.

We have been redeemed from the curse of the law, but not the curse of the fall. We live in a fallen world and we will have poverty, persecution, oppression, starvation and all manner of destitution until Jesus returns. Not even Christians are immune from these things. We need to have continued compassion upon the poor. In reality, we need more concern for the poor, especially those in the Christian community.

[pointer]

The Torah (first five books) are the seedbed of all biblical theology.

The church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and the Spirit of Christ is the originator of the church, whether that be the prophets who wrote the Old Testament, the apostles who wrote the New, or those who do not even own a Bible, as many of the early Christians did not.

[Kabowd]

The Torah (first five books) are the seedbed of all biblical theology.

The church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and the Spirit of Christ is the originator of the church, whether that be the prophets who wrote the Old Testament, the apostles who wrote the New, or those who do not even own a Bible, as many of the early Christians did not.

Huh? Are you saying the church takes precident over the Word?