It is not wrong for Gods servants to be wealthy!!

[Guest shiloh357]

The Torah (first five books) are the seedbed of all biblical theology.

The church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and the Spirit of Christ is the originator of the church, whether that be the prophets who wrote the Old Testament, the apostles who wrote the New, or those who do not even own a Bible, as many of the early Christians did not.

Which is completely beside the point, and not on topic. The point is that the Torah is the beginning of the revelation of God's character and operations laid out for us. My only point is that it lays out no plan for getting rich. The Bible is not a manual for personal success, but rather it teaches sacrifice and servanthood. It teaches the opposite of get all you can get. The Torah is about giving not about getting. It is about service to one's fellow. The Torah is the first to build on the truth that God is not looking for superstars but those who are willing to be simple servants.

[RGR]

The Torah (first five books) are the seedbed of all biblical theology.

The church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and the Spirit of Christ is the originator of the church, whether that be the prophets who wrote the Old Testament, the apostles who wrote the New, or those who do not even own a Bible, as many of the early Christians did not.

Which is completely beside the point, and not on topic. The point is that the Torah is the beginning of the revelation of God's character and operations laid out for us. My only point is that it lays out no plan for getting rich. The Bible is not a manual for personal success, but rather it teaches sacrifice and servanthood. It teaches the opposite of get all you can get. The Torah is about giving not about getting. It is about service to one's fellow. The Torah is the first to build on the truth that God is not looking for superstars but those who are willing to be simple servants.

[KeilanS]

Hmm, this is a strange topic. It exploded overnight.

Anyways, I think there is nothing wrong with a Christian being wealthy. (Seriously, 99% of Americans are, just because we can't afford a $2000 plasma TV, it hardly means we're poor).

The trick is to use your money for good, you know, the rich Christian who refuses to give any money beyond the 10% for any reason... no good. I don't care if you're giving 10%, if you're not a generous person then you have trouble.

You know, the parable about the widow in the temple applies here.

If I made $10,000 a month and give $1000, wow, thats a lot of money, eh? But then some poor person who makes $750 a month gives $300 to a friend in need. Who's the better giver?

That doesnt' mean we have to not make money, it means we have to give accordingly...

In fact, I'm pretty sure the bible says that God will hold us accountable in accordance with what he's given us? (I just tried to find the verse, but no luck, anyone know what I"m referring to?)

God Bless,

Keilan

[pointer]

The Torah (first five books) are the seedbed of all biblical theology.

The church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and the Spirit of Christ is the originator of the church, whether that be the prophets who wrote the Old Testament, the apostles who wrote the New, or those who do not even own a Bible, as many of the early Christians did not.

Which is completely beside the point, and not on topic.

In that case, your own view is completely beside the point, and not on topic, as both views deal with exactly the same issue.

The point is that the Torah is the beginning of the revelation of God's character and operations laid out for us.

It can't be. God's character is plain from what he has made, and there is no-one with excuse, Bible reader or not. Murder was wrong before there was one word of the Bible written. So was theft, and theft is the real subject of this thread, if the truth be told.

[apothanein kerdos]

It can't be. God's character is plain from what he has made, and there is no-one with excuse, Bible reader or not. Murder was wrong before there was one word of the Bible written. So was theft, and theft is the real subject of this thread, if the truth be told.

You're refering to general revelation...which we only know about through specific revelation (the Bible). A person cannot be saved without the Bible, therefore the cornerstone of truth is found in the Torah...man can get an idea, but he can't get a specific without the Bible.

[KeilanS]

I have yet to do much thinking on the subject... but I"m beginning to think the Bible is the ROOT of all knowledge... like everything.

I have talked to many pro-homosexuality people at my school... and one thing I notice is that they have no answer for why they feel that way. They just do... furthermore, I ask them why homosexuality is okay, and another sin like murder is bad? They don't have an answer... they settle on "Murder is just wrong or unnatural"... which is the truth, but so is homosexuality. They've already discredited the bible, so really, they have nothing to base their assumptions on... they're lost.

We need the bible as a guide to know up from down, let alone deep issues like this.

[pointer]

It can't be. God's character is plain from what he has made, and there is no-one with excuse, Bible reader or not. Murder was wrong before there was one word of the Bible written. So was theft, and theft is the real subject of this thread, if the truth be told.

You're refering to general revelation

So do people need to be told that murder, violence, theft, adultery, buggery etc. are wrong? Do they need to read that in a book? God evidently did not think so, as Cain, Noah's contemporaries, and the Sodomites discovered.

A person cannot be saved without the Bible

Nonsense! The church grew most rapidly when there was no Bible! It is the Holy Spirit who saves, not the Bible.

[KeilanS]

Nonsense! The church grew most rapidly when there was no Bible! It is the Holy Spirit who saves, not the Bible.

When was there no Bible... the Old Testament still existed (at least some of it) during Jesus's time... and Christianity obviously didn't start until Jesus was born.

[Guest shiloh357]

The Torah (first five books) are the seedbed of all biblical theology.

The church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and the Spirit of Christ is the originator of the church, whether that be the prophets who wrote the Old Testament, the apostles who wrote the New, or those who do not even own a Bible, as many of the early Christians did not.

Which is completely beside the point, and not on topic.

In that case, your own view is completely beside the point, and not on topic, as both views deal with exactly the same issue.

The point is that the Torah is the beginning of the revelation of God's character and operations laid out for us.

It can't be. God's character is plain from what he has made, and there is no-one with excuse, Bible reader or not. Murder was wrong before there was one word of the Bible written. So was theft, and theft is the real subject of this thread, if the truth be told.

I am not going to rehash the same knowledgable responses that AK gave you, pointer. I am not going waste time with you. You know just enough to be dangerous as is obvious from your posts. You are completely sidetracking this thread with your hatred for God's laws and I am not going to be party to that.

[apothanein kerdos]

So do people need to be told that murder, violence, theft, adultery, buggery etc. are wrong? Do they need to read that in a book? God evidently did not think so, as Cain, Noah's contemporaries, and the Sodomites discovered.

The problem is your view breaks down very quickly once we take a quick look at anthropological history. We discover child killings, murders, rapings, etc all as justifiable acts just a few hundred years ago in cultures void of the Word of God. We also see this prior to the forumulation of even the OT, thus bringing about the necessary means of a cannonized Word.

Nonsense! The church grew most rapidly when there was no Bible! It is the Holy Spirit who saves, not the Bible.

Are you smoking pot? What do you think Paul was refering to in 2 Timothy 3:16? He is refering to the Old Testament, which all Christians had. Furthermore, the Holy Spirit REVEALS truth through the Word.

Have you even read the Bible? This is quite elemetry stuff for us to be discussing at this point in your Christian walk.

I wish I could be nicer, but when you try to make an absolute out of an absurd, it's hard to show any form of tolerance.