Who Crucified Jesus?

[gop_jeff]

Greetings Gop Jeff,

I agree that "his own" did not receive Him. I hold that "His own" would be all of mankind. I think that I even mentioned our spiritual guilt that was the reason Christ had to suffer and die. But it was indeed the religious Jews who requested that Jesus be put to death.

An angel appeared to Joseph and told him that he must name the child Jesus - because He would save HIS PEOPLE from their sins. In another place, he tells a Cananite woman that He came to save "the LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL".

In Romans Paul tells us that there was ONLY A REMNANT of Jews that remained true to Christ and he counted himself among them.

In the OT, there is a verse that says: "Strike the Shephard and the sheep will scatter."

Because of the UNREPENTANT NATION OF ISRAEL, the Kingdom of God was taken from them and given to the gentiles. It was the command of Jesus to His disciples that they go into ALL the world (the gentiles) preaching, baptizing and making disciples of them.

Throughout all of history, God has ALWAYS kept a "remnant" of Jews, and this is so today. However, we see that in Romans 11, it tells of a day when ALL ISRAEL shall be saved, they will then have received their "fulness".

Peter was about the only that maintained an evangelical reach to Israel. But there came a time, when he too was killed. Remember it was ALL of Israel that killed their prophets, EVEN their OWN Messiah. They were/are a stiff necked people, and they are enemies of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you doubt this read Romans 11.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

I'm not quite sure what point you are getting at. You are correct in saying what you have said. However, we, as Gentiles, are no less guilty than the Jews are, in the sense that we all have sins that must be atoned for. But, historically speaking, as I posted earlier, the religious Jews were the ones who demanded that Jesus be killed, and the Romans were the ones that did it - in fulfillment of Scripture, might I add.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings GOP Jeff,

I'm not quite sure what point you are getting at. You are correct in saying what you have said. However, we, as Gentiles, are no less guilty than the Jews are, in the sense that we all have sins that must be atoned for. But, historically speaking, as I posted earlier, the religious Jews were the ones who demanded that Jesus be killed, and the Romans were the ones that did it - in fulfillment of Scripture, might I add.

Please recall the TOPIC of this thread. Today and throughout history we see a few men leading a great number of people to do things which were in their hearts already. Hitler is a good example of this. We have riots and sit-ins and marches and insurrections by great numbers of people led by a very few. Those leaders do not instill in the hearts of people the MOTIVE to do something because the desire was always there, it just had to be kindled and set ablaze. This is what happened when Jesus went before Pilate. In movies we can hear the chants OF THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL "give us Barrabus". I know that is a lot of Hollywood hype, but the point is valid. The scriptures plainly say that it was the JEWS, and NOT just the RELIGIOUS Jews that killed Jesus. If you could prove otherwise then I would listen. But your own biasness prevents you from LISTENING TO WHAT GOD SAYS.

I earlier gave a scenario of a firing squad. Please read it and respond to that scenario.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest No Spoons]

The Jewish Method of execution was stoning, not crucifixion. Rome removed the power of capital punishment from the Jewish authorities. Remember the woman caught in adultery. They were going to stone her. Remember Steven, the first martyr, he was stoned to death. Since Rome remove their authority to execute in a few years time frame. G~d allowed both Jewish and Gentile involvement in the death of the Messiah. He died for both Jews and Gentiles.

Mark 14:53-65; followed by Matt. 26:59-68 records a formal, Jewish, "night" trial with accusations, witnesses, and a sentence.and Luke records a morning hearing before the Sanhedrin (Luke 22:66-71 without formal sentencing, and John has separate appearances before Annas at night and Caiaphas (in the morning) who conducts an interrogation 18:12-24. Pontius Pilate who was Roman (a.d. 26-36), ordered the execution (also attested by the Roman historian Tacitus, Annals 15.44). Jewish laws on capital trials are found in texts almost two centuries after the death of Y'shua , so it is not known whether they reflect first-century practice. the trial in Mark is not legal, since according to the Mishnah capital trials could not be held at night or on the eve of a Sabbath or feast day . The sentence of death could not be pronounced on the same day as the trial ; prior examination of witnesses, as well as independent agreement of their testimony, was required. Deut. 19:15-18 the charge of blasphemy required the explicit pronouncing of the divine name and trials were to be held in the official chamber, not in the house of the high priest. Mark 14:54.; Also uncertain is whether the Sanhedrin had the power to execute for capital offenses during Roman occupation ;see John 18:31; If so, Yeshua should have been stoned, which was the Jewish penalty for blasphemy. G~d in His timely planning allowed Rome to remove Jewish rights to execution by stoning for this brief period of time. Recall that they were allow to stone the woman caught in adultery before the death of Y'shua, and did stone Stephen as recorded in the book of Acts. This was to fulfill prophecy such as Psalm 22 indicating the Messiah would die by crucifixion . Though reconstruction of the events would involve study of all the Gospels, Mark offers some clues to the historical situation. The public reason given in the placard on the cross Mark 15:26, recorded in all four Gospels, was that Y'shua claimed to be a king, which for the Romans was tantamount to sedition. Those crucified with Y'shua are called "revolutionary bandits". Y'shua's teaching on the kingdom, his association with marginal groups in his society, and his attacks on abuses associated with the Temple made him suspect to both Romans and the Jerusalem aristocracy. Though some interrogation may have taken place before Jewish authorities, the Romans bear the responsibility for any formal trial. None of the Gospels mentions extensive participation by the Pharisees in the death of Y'shua, so not all Jewish leaders, and certainly not the entire mass of Jewish people at the time of Y'shua, rejected Y'shua or were responsible for his death. Ultimately Y'shua of Nazareth claims all responsibility and is the willing Servant, the willing Suffering Servant. His entire purpose was to come to die. For G~d so loved the world he gave his only begotten son and whoever believes in Him he shall never perish, but have eternal life. All mankind have some responsibility in the death of the Messiah and the scriptures indicate it pleased the L~rd to smite him..

[Guest idolsmasher]

The Jewish Method of execution was stoning, not crucifixion. Rome removed the power of capital punishment from the Jewish authorities. Remember the woman caught in adultery. They were going to stone her. Remember Steven, the first martyr, he was stoned to death. Since Rome remove their authority to execute in a few years time frame. G~d allowed both Jewish and Gentile involvement in the death of the Messiah. He died for both Jews and Gentiles.

Mark 14:53-65; followed by Matt. 26:59-68 records a formal, Jewish, "night" trial with accusations, witnesses, and a sentence.and Luke records a morning hearing before the Sanhedrin (Luke 22:66-71 without formal sentencing, and John has separate appearances before Annas at night and Caiaphas (in the morning) who conducts an interrogation 18:12-24. Pontius Pilate who was Roman (a.d. 26-36), ordered the execution (also attested by the Roman historian Tacitus, Annals 15.44). Jewish laws on capital trials are found in texts almost two centuries after the death of Y'shua , so it is not known whether they reflect first-century practice. the trial in Mark is not legal, since according to the Mishnah capital trials could not be held at night or on the eve of a Sabbath or feast day . The sentence of death could not be pronounced on the same day as the trial ; prior examination of witnesses, as well as independent agreement of their testimony, was required. Deut. 19:15-18 the charge of blasphemy required the explicit pronouncing of the divine name and trials were to be held in the official chamber, not in the house of the high priest. Mark 14:54.; Also uncertain is whether the Sanhedrin had the power to execute for capital offenses during Roman occupation ;see John 18:31; If so, Yeshua should have been stoned, which was the Jewish penalty for blasphemy. G~d in His timely planning allowed Rome to remove Jewish rights to execution by stoning for this brief period of time. Recall that they were allow to stone the woman caught in adultery before the death of Y'shua, and did stone Stephen as recorded in the book of Acts. This was to fulfill prophecy such as Psalm 22 indicating the Messiah would die by crucifixion . Though reconstruction of the events would involve study of all the Gospels, Mark offers some clues to the historical situation. The public reason given in the placard on the cross Mark 15:26, recorded in all four Gospels, was that Y'shua claimed to be a king, which for the Romans was tantamount to sedition. Those crucified with Y'shua are called "revolutionary bandits". Y'shua's teaching on the kingdom, his association with marginal groups in his society, and his attacks on abuses associated with the Temple made him suspect to both Romans and the Jerusalem aristocracy. Though some interrogation may have taken place before Jewish authorities, the Romans bear the responsibility for any formal trial. None of the Gospels mentions extensive participation by the Pharisees in the death of Y'shua, so not all Jewish leaders, and certainly not the entire mass of Jewish people at the time of Y'shua, rejected Y'shua or were responsible for his death. Ultimately Y'shua of Nazareth claims all responsibility and is the willing Servant, the willing Suffering Servant. His entire purpose was to come to die. For G~d so loved the world he gave his only begotten son and whoever believes in Him he shall never perish, but have eternal life. All mankind have some responsibility in the death of the Messiah and the scriptures indicate it pleased the L~rd to smite him..

This is a nice bit of revisionist history but don't forget that Pilate would have let him go if it had not been for the cries of "crucify Him" and also it was the Jewish leaders who brought Him to Pilate on trumped up charges.

[Adstar]

Matthew 27:25

And all the people answered and said, "His blood be on us and on our children."

This was the statement that Pilate was looking for. Pilate knew that Jesus had many supporters amongst the common people. He feared that he was being set up to do the Sanhedrins dirty work and face a larger revolt from the populace. He held out waiting for this statement so as to make it known that the execution of Jesus while carried out under the supervision of Rome was in fact an execution carried out for the religious authorities of the Jews.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[nebula]

Gotta admit, it does scare me when a person will say he's a Christian and then not take any responsibility whatsoever for Christ's death. If we believe He died for the sins of the world, and our sins are a part of the sins of the world, then we are all guilty - and it doesn't matter who was the actual instrument in getting Him there.

[Dad Ernie]

Gotta admit, it does scare me when a person will say he's a Christian and then not take any responsibility whatsoever for Christ's death. If we believe He died for the sins of the world, and our sins are a part of the sins of the world, then we are all guilty - and it doesn't matter who was the actual instrument in getting Him there.

Greetings Nebula,

Please take a gander at these verses:

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Matt 23:30-32 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Romans 11:2-3 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

1 Thess 2:14-15 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

I have already given this analogy, please reread it and give me your response:

I did not KILL Jesus, nor did I HAVE HIM KILLED, AND NEITHER DID YOU!

I was once apathetic toward God. But one day I found that I was GUILTY OF SIN that separated myself from God, and I was in effect put before a firing squad because of my sin guilt. BUT, God in His GREAT Mercy & Love for me, sent His Son to take my place in front of that firing squad. Jesus did so of His own free will, wishing that NONE should perish. He took the death that was staring me in the face.

Can you please tell me then HOW I WAS RESPONSIBLE for KILLING Jesus? On this side of the cross, it was God's great love that saved me. On the other side of the cross, the LAW KILLS, and so those who practiced it were the ones who KILLED Jesus.

Please respond to this.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[nebula]

I was once apathetic toward God. But one day I found that I was GUILTY OF SIN that separated myself from God, and I was in effect put before a firing squad because of my sin guilt. BUT, God in His GREAT Mercy & Love for me, sent His Son to take my place in front of that firing squad. Jesus did so of His own free will, wishing that NONE should perish. He took the death that was staring me in the face.

Can you please tell me then HOW I WAS RESPONSIBLE for KILLING Jesus?

If you were not guilty of sin, would He have needed to put Himself in front of that firing squad?

[Dad Ernie]

If you were not guilty of sin, would He have needed to put Himself in front of that firing squad?

Greetings Neb,

If I came gunning for you, aiming to blow your head off and I succeeded, I could be charged with your murder. Guess who went gunning for Jesus? Was it you or I? Who were the ones who yelled "Crucify Him"? Was that you or I standing there? Throughout the Gospels you might say that it was the Pharisees and Sadducees that sought to kill Jesus, but that is not exactly correct. All they did was lead the Jewish people to do what was already in their hearts to do. He came unto "His own" and His own received Him not."

How can you be so persistent in your assertions when even the scriptures deny your claims? How many times are you going to add to or take away from the Word of God? Don't you realize the severe consequences for that?

Get real Neb.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[nebula]

I'll just leave it to the words of Chuck Coleson - who is a better apologeticist than I am.

"Who Killed Jesus?"

BreakPoint with Charles Colson

February 12, 2004

The cover of the latest Newsweek magazine asks the right question: