When the Bible is Silent

[Naziyr]

The Majority feel that the first ordinance is that the seed find it's place in the female reproductive organ. I do know of the uterine wall scenario, but this is under a different ordinace and a different topic: Abortion.

The main focus is that the semen find it's place in the female reproductive organ. It's just fundamental in that it has to be there and nowhere else.

Now according to abortion and so forth and what not, in the case of women who should not concieve do to medial problems, "abortion" is allowed, as it places the mother's life in danger. So the first immediate act of "not letting the egg attach" would be what would have to happen later on in the pregnancy.

I myself don't think any abortion should be used, because while it is allowed, I don't think we should turn away a gift. Sarah the wife of Abraham would jump outta the grave and slap a few women if she knew they'd be WILLFULLY making themselves infertile. lol

But there are many more commandments about this very topic.

Shalom

[Guest LadyC]

here we go.

the sin of Onan was not masturbation, nor was it (in general) about birth control. the reason Onan was struck down was because he was defiant about the law requiring him to provide his deceased brother an heir to his inheritance by taking his sister-in-law as a wife. his sin was GREED, and that sin was carried out in the manner of refusing to produce an heir that would recieve a portion of his property.

onan was a specific person who was specifically required to impregnate someone on behalf of another. it is an incorrect assumption that 'spilling seed', or preventing sperm from reaching the egg is in itself a sin. it was a sin in THIS instance with THIS individual because of his motivation and his rebellion.

now, since naziyr brought up the other so-called sin that the Bible is silent on, masturbation, let me go ahead and cover ground in that arena also. the act itself is not sinful... however, it can become sinful under certain circumstances. for instance, if a man is married, and is denying his wife pleasure in order to satisfy himself, that is a sin. also, if a man is having lustful thoughts and fantasies about someone else whom he is not married to, the thoughts are sinful and the act is tainted. likewise, the same is true for women in those circumstances. if a woman denies her husband her body in order to satisfy herself, or if she's having lustful thoughts of someone she is not married to, she sins.

[Guest LadyC]

raven,

depo shots aren't generally abortificant. at least not in general. depo prevents ovulation... it prevents the egg from ever being released. it is possible, although unlikely, for an egg to be released and become fertilized. it is not the intended consequence of the drug however, and is only a slightly possible side effect.

[Naziyr]

the sin of Onan was not masturbation, nor was it (in general) about birth control. the reason Onan was struck down was because he was defiant about the law requiring him to provide his deceased brother an heir to his inheritance by taking his sister-in-law as a wife. his sin was GREED, and that sin was carried out in the manner of refusing to produce an heir that would recieve a portion of his property.

Incorrect.

Though the seed was to be given in the place of the dead Brother, it is more representational than anything else. The child born of the surviving brother would hold claim to BOTH estates (deceased brother, and living brother), so it was in the father's best interest to give an heir. Now this is spoken of in the majority, among Christians as they do not understand the custom.

He wasn't struck down because of disobedience to the Law, or even disobedience to his Father. If disobedience to the Law required immediate death, then many more of the patriarchs would have died long before their time.

onan was a specific person who was specifically required to impregnate someone on behalf of another. it is an incorrect assumption that 'spilling seed', or preventing sperm from reaching the egg is in itself a sin. it was a sin in THIS instance with THIS individual because of his motivation and his rebellion.

No, when the seed is spilled, both male and female become defiled in that they are both rendered unclean by having contact with a semenal emission (review Law of the seed, nocturnal emissions, etc. etc.). Modern science shows that the main bulk of semenal emission isn't the only thing that can render a woman pregnant. The pre-semenal emission is ALSO capable of impregnating a woman. Additionally, there's over 2000 years of Jewish teaching (the original holders of the Torah) that shows this form of birth control as sinful. Why is it that only recently people are trying to equate it with "greed" and whatnot and so forth? Especially considering that even IF he made a child 10 years down the road, it would STILL bear his brother's name? It wasn't a matter of greed at all.

now, since naziyr brought up the other so-called sin that the Bible is silent on, masturbation, let me go ahead and cover ground in that arena also. the act itself is not sinful... however, it can become sinful under certain circumstances. for instance, if a man is married, and is denying his wife pleasure in order to satisfy himself, that is a sin. also, if a man is having lustful thoughts and fantasies about someone else whom he is not married to, the thoughts are sinful and the act is tainted. likewise, the same is true for women in those circumstances. if a woman denies her husband her body in order to satisfy herself, or if she's having lustful thoughts of someone she is not married to, she sins.

This is purely a Antinomian Christian concept. The Torah and over 2000 years of observance do not agree with this.

Shalom

Edited September 30, 2006 by Naziyr

[LadyRaven]

raven,

depo shots aren't generally abortificant. at least not in general. depo prevents ovulation... it prevents the egg from ever being released. it is possible, although unlikely, for an egg to be released and become fertilized. it is not the intended consequence of the drug however, and is only a slightly possible side effect.

But that possible side effect is the death of an innocent child.

[Guest LadyC]

raven, the possible side affect of anything could cause one to abort. eating fish while pregnant can cause one to abort. it doesn't mean eating fish is a sin, unless the INTENTION of eating fish was to cause a miscarriage.

naziyr, i may concede the point on inheritance, having just looked the scripture passage back up. however,

8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.

scripture is quite clear that onan's sin was disobedience in regard to giving his brother a child. it was rebellion, even if it wasn't greed.

since you bring up nocturnal emissions, a passage i wasn't going to bring up because in the past, people have argued with me on this board that 'nocturnal emissions' didn't have anything to do with semen, but was instead, supposed to be construed to mean a bowel movement.

God allowed for nocturnal emission when a husband was away at war. that is the whole reason the passage is in there saying that one must leave the camp to perform this act, and then cover the semen with dirt. it is a matter of privacy.

you and i may have to agree to disagree with this one. masturbation, in and of itself, is not a sin. and onan was not struck down by God for practicing birth control. he was struck down for not giving his deceased brother an heir, whether we're talking about property inheritance or just a name to carry on.

[Naziyr]

Ah yes, Camp cleanliness... lol.

Well considering anything that touched the emission was unclean for a period, I don't think an army of thousands of Israelite Soldiers would defile the camp by masturbating in such a fashion.

I have always understood the "digging tool for covering excrement" ordinance as bodily wastes. Men of war setting up new camps had to have designated places as restrooms, to avoid disease and sickness in the camp. We see this with our modern day army, and foreign armies. And I think a few on here know all too well "latrine duty" lol!

The camp ordinance I have see, and have been taught from rabbinical tradition, to be as "bodily wastes" and not semenal emmitions, because as I stated before, anything touching the semenal emission would be unclean for a time. Anything touching that object would be rendered unclean themselves for the day. So allowing soldiers to render themselves unclean in the field does not make much sense to me. Of note, the act we're both talking about (the one concerning covering the stuff in question), should it be seen as "bodily wastes", would be ceremonially okay because using the restroom does not render one unclean. But as I stated before, being exposed to outter semen makes the person, and the object touching it unclean.

I dunno, but when I go camping with a bunch of men... I don't get the urge to um... ya.

"scripture is quite clear that onan's sin was disobedience in regard to giving his brother a child. it was rebellion, even if it wasn't greed."

Of course it was fundamentally an act of rebellion. If not against man, then against the nature of G-d (as the Commandments show). I was just having a problem with the greed issue is all. I agree that he was killed for rebellion. I think I am having the problem with the underlying message and tradition in it. Even of Onan gave an heir, the heir by Law would have "firstborn" rights, even if it is the seed of another.

Meh

Shalom

[Floatingaxe]

God allowed for nocturnal emission when a husband was away at war. that is the whole reason the passage is in there saying that one must leave the camp to perform this act, and then cover the semen with dirt. it is a matter of privacy.

you and i may have to agree to disagree with this one. masturbation, in and of itself, is not a sin.

Nocturnal emissions in reality are events that occur without a man's control. Where on earth do you arrive at the conclusion that it is masturbation and that it is not a sinful act?

[LadyRaven]

raven, the possible side affect of anything could cause one to abort. eating fish while pregnant can cause one to abort. it doesn't mean eating fish is a sin, unless the INTENTION of eating fish was to cause a miscarriage.

It is not a natural reaction to fish to have a spontaneous abortion, nor is it an intended result of the person catching the fish to cause you to have one so this is not parallel.

A more appropriate parallel would be the taking of certain medications that can harm or kill the unborn child while you are pregnant and what response you should then have.

The hostile uterine environment is not an accident and the miscarriage is not an unfortunate side effect, it is part and parcel to the way the drugs are designed.

The source of this information is here:

The Pill has three mechanisms of action which can easily be looked up in the Physician's Desk Reference.

1) Sometimes, the Pill suppresses ovulation. When this happens, an egg is not released and conception cannot occur. (It's important to read on and find out about the high rates of breakthrough ovulation. When ovulation is not suppressed, pregnancy can occur.)

2) The Pill also works to thicken the woman's cervical mucus which can "restrict" sperm from moving up the reproductive tract toward the egg.

3) One way the Pill causes early abortions is that it interfers with the flexing motions and the cilia movement of the fallopian tubes. These changes slow the transportation of newly conceived child from the fallopian tubes to the womb. Unfortunately, many small babies starve to death in the fallopian tubes because chemicals caused changes that prevented them from reaching the womb in time to be nourished.

4) Another way the Pill causes early abortions: If your tiny baby survives the ride down the fallopian tube to your womb, the Pill will almost always cause the endometrium (the lining of your uterus) to reject your child. Chemical reactions often cause the lining of your womb to become thin, shriveled and unable to support implantation of your newly conceived child.

This means that in almost every case, your new child will not be able to attach to the wall of your womb where he or she would normally live, grow and receive nourishment for 9 months. This means your tiny baby will starve to death and his or her remains will be passed along in your next bleeding cycle. (The "Study of Abortion Deaths Commission" estimates that this happens in women in America who use the Pill approximately 1 to 4 million times each year.)

The chemicals that cause these early abortions are called abortifacients which is the medical term for any chemical agent that causes an abortion.

Depo-Provera, Norplant and IUDs

Depo-Provera and Norplant both use chemicals that work in very simlar ways on a woman's body and womb. Depo-Provera and Norplant are also considered chemical abortifacients.

IUDs or Intra-Uterine Devices, are small plastic devices that are inserted into the womb. Some IUDs contain copper or a time released hormone. It is believed that the IUD causes a low grade inflammation in the lining of the womb. As a result, the lining of the womb is imperfect and the fertilized egg will not implant. (Source: This paragraph on IUDs is quoted directly from the Calgary Regional Health Authority's web site.)

Because of the chemical effect an IUD has on a woman's womb, tiny babies are aborted. Therefore, IUDs are also considered abortifacients.

It is no longer labelled as "abortafacient" by most birth control manufacturers because the theory is that if a tiny baby never implants the woman was never pregnant, thus it is considered to be a contraceptive effect instead. And yes, depo does cause this effect

If I were to knowingly take something which was designed to kill my child if I did manage to concieve, I do believe I would be sinning.

[Guest LadyC]

God allowed for nocturnal emission when a husband was away at war. that is the whole reason the passage is in there saying that one must leave the camp to perform this act, and then cover the semen with dirt. it is a matter of privacy.

you and i may have to agree to disagree with this one. masturbation, in and of itself, is not a sin.

Nocturnal emissions in reality are events that occur without a man's control. Where on earth do you arrive at the conclusion that it is masturbation and that it is not a sinful act?

raven, if it was without a man's control, God would not have instructed men to leave the camp. because it is regulated by the Bible, this negates the possibility that this was simply a 'wet dream' so to speak.

where on earth do you get the idea that masturbation IS a sinful act, since nowhere in scripture SAYS it is? i've already covered the only two bases i think you'll try to point out... if one is having lustful thoughts of someone other than his wife, that is a sin. if one is depriving their spouse of what is rightfully theirs in terms of sexuality, then that is also a sin. but for a man who is separated from his wife for a period of time due to war or other logistics, he does not sin in relieving himself as long as he's not having impure thoughts... and i'll point out the obvious, that sexual thoughts of your spouse is not impure.

regarding the other post... it is NOT a natural reaction to depo-privera to have a miscarriage, just as it is not the natural reaction to eating fish. (or at least certain types of fish.) NOR is it the intention of the manufacturer of depo to cause a miscarriage, just as it is not the intention of the fisherman that catches the fish. depo's primary function is to prevent ovulation in the first place. yet both fish and depo CAN cause miscarriages as a possible side effect. therefore my analogy is fine.