Doctrinal Questions

[sagz4Christ]

{how can one speak in a gift{tongues}given by the HOLY-SPIRIT before they are saved???

BABBLE??-BABBLE???This is the second night in a row where my spirit is "GRIEVED" because of the

ignorance of & vilification of GOD'S WORD & the gifts of THE HOLY-SPIRIT----

I-PRAY-OH-LORD-MY-GOD-THAT-YOUR-WORD-WILL-GO-FORTH-IN-TRUTH-IN-LOVE-&-IN-POWER--

Personal opinions have NO place when referring to GOD'S WORD --Either TEACH the WORD as it is WRITTEN or {KEEP SILENT}-TO term the GIFTS of the HOLY-SPIRIT as {BABBLE} is dangerously close to BLASPHEMY & THAT IS NOT MY OPINION IT IS SCRIPTURE!!!!!

TO INSULT the HOLY-SPIRIT by comparing HIS gifts to BABBLE IS the same as saying HIS gifts are

UNCLEAN OR BABBLE{babble comes from"babylon"}where GOD confused"cursed" the languages--

{how secure are you now in"cursing"the gifts of the HOLY-SPIRIT??}

mark.3.vss.28-29-30-------

Verily I say unto you,All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men,and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme;

But he that shall blaspheme against the HOLY-GHOST hath never forgiveness,

but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Because they said,HE hath an unclean spirit.......

LUKE.11.vs.13-------

IF ye then,being evil,know how to give good gifts unto your children;

how much more shall your heavenly FATHER give the HOLY-SPIRIT

to them that ask him?

1st.corin.12.vs.4------

Now there are diversities of gifts,but the same SPIRIT.{notice the SPIRIT}is a gift & HE IS HOLY

vs.7-------

But the manifestation of the "SPIRIT" is given to every man to profit withal...

vss.8-9-10-----ARE all gifts given by the {HOLY-SPIRIT} to each person to profit with--by-

vs.11--------

But all these worketh that one and the selfsame SPIRIT,dividing to every man severally as HE will---

{THE HOLY SPIRIT} gives the gifts TO "every man"to build themselves up {spiritually} & in the church{building--meeting house} ALL the gifts of the HOLY-SPIRIT can be used for the edification of the church body as a whole OR {at home } to build up--edify each individual believer--------

GOD-BLESS-ALL-TRUTHSEEKERS-------------------------Gary--

It must have been overlooked that I never intended to make the gift of tongues sound like babble. I simply stated what the Bible said about the gift, and that I felt uncomfortable when grown people talked in such a way as to have noone understand what they are saying.

Picture this:

We are in a time of prayer....intense prayer.....the Spirit of God is really moving through us....all of a sudden, someone starts yelling "asd;lfjkvw eoif a;lsdkf asdlkfjalsiuuyhvadsiuh skjb ajdf a;s fdfhdsaufhiu ajkdf lvcjbv c dskjska aksjd jdjdwe89kjd!!"

I'm sorry...what was that?

No translation...no witness...nothing but incoherrant words..if you can call them that.

To be honest....I personally am not a fan of this gift...but Scripture does in fact say that the specific gift of tongues of for unbelievers. Not believers.

Please understand, Gary, I am not trying to take anything away from the Spirit of God. I am only trying to understand more fully what Scripture says. The gift of tongues does not automatically assume you will talk in some strange, never heard of language. It actually refers to literal "tongues", or the various languages of men. Yes...I know the Spirit makes groanings that we cannot understand...but this does not automatically assume those groanings are some incoherant talk.

Have you ever heard someone groaning under thier breath? You can only catch a word or two...so you ask..."What was that? I didn't understand you." Well, what they were saying was not necessarily for you to understand. It has been my experience that this is the groaning the Spirit makes on my behalf. I will be able to catch a word or two, but the Spirit is talking, not me. (I know this sounds awful weird, but I can't explain it any other way).

In my study of Scripture, I have not seen evidence that the gift of tongues involves the type of talk that I described in my last post. If unknowingly, I made it sound like I was making fun of the Spirit and His gifts, then I most humbly apologize. It was not my intention to portray that thought.

I hold the gifts of God in the highest reguard. They are important, and they are incredible beyond meassure. But when the use of said gifts are laid out for specific reasons and or specified people groups, we should not deviate from that.

I love you Gary, and feel bad that I offended you. I hope this helped clear things up a bit.

If there is Scripture support for the other, (what I called babble due to lack of a thesaurus) I will gladly study it and adjust my view according to what Scripture says.

~your servant in Christ

[Guest shadow2b]

-------It must have been overlooked that I never intended to make the gift of tongues sound like babble. I simply stated what the Bible said about the gift, and that I felt uncomfortable when grown people talked in such a way as to have noone understand what they are saying.

Picture this:

We are in a time of prayer....intense prayer.....the Spirit of God is really moving through us....all of a sudden, someone starts yelling "asd;lfjkvw eoif a;lsdkf asdlkfjalsiuuyhvadsiuh skjb ajdf a;s fdfhdsaufhiu ajkdf lvcjbv c dskjska aksjd jdjdwe89kjd!!"

I'm sorry...what was that?

No translation...no witness...nothing but incoherrant words..if you can call them that.

To be honest....I personally am not a fan of this gift...but Scripture does in fact say that the specific gift of tongues of for unbelievers. Not believers.

YOU personally areNOT a FAN of "THIS" gift of the HOLY-SPIRIT??????--WHY???????

IT is quite apparent you have a PREdisposed "DIS-like??-HATRED??-for "THIS" gift of the HOLY-SPIRIT-----Neither do you "understand the "scriptures"--

HOW could a {non-believer-unsaved-sinner} speak in a GIFT of the HOLY-SPIRIT???????

THE unknown "tongues are given by the HOLY-SPIRIT--to edify the individual "believer" to edify--build up--strengthen that "believer" OR is to be used in the church-setting to edify -build up--encourage--rebuke-the congregation---see--REV.chpts.1-thru-3----

INCOHERANT WORDS???TO YOU MAYBE---but a person doesNOT have to understand the "incoherant words" to interpret the message to the church-body--the HOLY-SPIRIT "impresses"

on the "believer"the interpretation or meaning of the message without the interpretor understanding the actual language----Perhaps the book of Daniel would enlighten you on this subject.....

1st.corin.12.vs.1--------

Now concerning spiritual gifts,brethren,I would not have you ignorant.....

{please pay close attention to these scriptures-I would not have you brethren to be ignorant of spiritual gifts of the HOLY-SPIRIT]----

vs.2------

YE know that ye were GENTILES,carried away unto these dumb idols,even as ye were led......

Wherefore I give you to understand,that no man speaking by the SPIRIT of GOD calleth JESUS

accursed; and that no man can say that JESUS is the LORD,but by the HOLY-GHOST.........

{SO every time that YOU say "JESUS IS MY LORD" you do so under the power of--unction of--

impression of- gift of- the HOLY-SPIRIT-}Are you also NOT a fan of "this"gift ????

How about "prophesy"??are you also "NOT" a fan of "this" gift????

vs.4-------

Now there are diversities of "gifts",But the same SPIRIT.{HOLY}

vs.5------

And there are diversities of administrations,but the same LORD.....

vs.6------

And there are diversities of operations,but it is the same GOD

which worketh all in all.........

vs.7------

But the manifestation of the SPIRIT is given to every man to profit withal......

IT is also obviously apparent you doNOT wish to {profit-withal}BY the gift{S} of the HOLY-SPIRIT---

YOU have-NOT offended ME--RATHER you in your super-spiritualist intelligience have offended the

HOLY-SPIRIT BY {rejecting} HIS offer of "gift{S} to edify-strengthen,build-up-& draw you "closer"

to the one you call LORD............HE{the HOLY-SPIRIT} wishes to guide you into all TRUTH...

HE {the HOLY-SPIRIT} wishes to lead you to "deeper"revelations of GOD'S WORD......

HE{the HOLY-SPIRIT} wishes to "shew" you things to come........

HOW could HE{the HOLY-SPIRIT} do any of these "things" with you--for you--when you------

{reject--vilify-scorn--ridicule}HIS VERY ESSENCE--HIS gift giving promises--HIS revelation knowledge

NO my friend it isNOT ME you need to "repent" before----IT is HE the HOLY-SPIRIT you need to bow

before & weep-& reach out to & to seek HIS guidence into ALL TRUTH Which is JESUS YESHUA HIMSELF-because HE {the HOLY-SPIRIT} always points to JESUS-----

THE HOLY-SPIRIT always points to "sanctification" in THE WORD--THE WORD SANCTIFIES---THE WORD IS TRUTH----Therein lies your sanctification--wisdom--power--love-strength--knowledge----

GOD-BLESS-ALL-TRUTHSEEKERS-------------------------Gary--

[sagz4Christ]

YOU have-NOT offended ME--RATHER you in your super-spiritualist intelligience have offended the

HOLY-SPIRIT

you know, I was in the middle of a long post dealing with each part of your reply, Gary.

Halfway through I gave up and decided to only point this one sentence out. you have offended me. deeply. I will assume you did not mean to, and will forgive you even if you don't ask for it.

In the future, I ask that you refrain from talking like that to me. I understand maybe...and that is a BIG maybe that I might have needed a talking to....but, friend, you had no right to come down on me like that.

super spiritualist!? I thought you knew me better than that. I am not saying...nor have I EVER said I was perfect, and in full knowledge of the mysteries of God. How dare you insinuate that I even came CLOSE to implying that.

I am shocked....and hurt by those words, Gary.

oh, and by the way, what goes on between me and the Holy Spirit is OUR business. He lets me know when I mess up, and the rebuke I got from you...at least for now, has not been godly, for I have not been convicted yet for what I said. I have been abused for giving my opinion, and even hurt deeply, but conviction is not yet come. I will let you know when and if it does.

~sagz

[RGR]

Sagz,

I can't speak for Gary, and don't intend to, but maybe it was intended jokingly? Don't know, but please be patient with us all-some trying times on the Boards lately, ya know?

I personally have spoken in tounges and believe they are for the church today. It is edifying to me to speak in the "heavenly language" as well it should be. I've heard messages go out in tounges and interpreted and I believe it to be of God. No, one doesn't have to speak in tounges to be a Christian, but I think it's one of the things that allows us to grow in Christ.

With much love-God bless,

Ronald

[sagz4Christ]

thank you sooo much RGR!

I can deal with disagreement...and even a rebuke if needed when it is done out of love.

I know for me, Gary is hard to understand sometimes...but..well...I said my piece. I am studying this topic right now and am finding some pretty interesting things out.

I will come back and post again when I am done with my study.

Thank you again for the honesty and love in your post.

~your servant in Christ

[ColleenLovesMischief]

The church I used to go to required you to speak in tongues to be saved. I just visited there Sunday night.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings All,

This may be controversial to some, but here is my understanding. First let me quote:

Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

And of course this verse as has already been quoted:

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

And I can't forget:

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

I do believe that tongues were given to the church and it is as relevant today as it was 2,000 years ago. However, as Sagz has pointed out, the "tongue" spoken, has more to do with the HEARING than it does the actual speaking.

In Acts, there were some who considered the Apostles were drunk and just babbling. Others actually HEARD the Apostles speaking in their own language.

So I believe that when Paul speaks of "tongues of angels and men", he is defining the two MAIN languages which are available NOW to men.

Consider from Adam to the Tower of Babel. What language did they speak? May I suggest that as Adam "heard":

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

THAT was the "spiritual" or "angelic" language which was prevelant. And it continued until God determined that man would NO LONGER speak in this language, and confused EVERYONE's language so that the ANGELIC language would no more be heard on this earth. (That is except for those who had EARS TO HEAR).

This was a curse on man, and at the cross that curse was lifted for ALL who would believe in the Son:

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

1100 glossa {gloce-sah'}

of uncertain affinity; TDNT - 1:719,123; n f

AV - tongue 50; 50

1) the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech

2) a tongue

1a) the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct

from that of other nations

In the Kingdom of God, the people therein DO speak in a NEW TONGUE, whether figurative or literally. Certainly the WORLD does not understand it. And when God determines to use one of us to "preach" to the unbeliever, it is the SPIRIT who gives understanding to the unbeliever. It may be in the UNIVERSAL language of Angels, OR it may be in one of the TONGUES OF MEN, or it may be in plain English but the hearing by another person of another language will be touched by the Holy Spirit to understand it in his/her own language.

And yes, the spirit speaks to God in groans which we may not understand. Words that may be unintelligible to us, but God is hearing our hearts - our spirits.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[JesusisGod2]

The Bible shows by example that "tongues" are the speaking of other known human languages, or dialects.

The Greek word for tongue is Glossa, which is used to describe a tongue as an organ, or a language or dialect used by people from other lands. Some would argue that Paul teaches that there is another form of tongue, the tongues of angels, in 1 Cor. 13:1.  Yet Paul never claimed to be able to speak with the tongues of angels.  This was not the point of his speaking.  The King James renders 1 Cor. 13:1 as "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels..."  But the Greek indicates the word is more appropriately rendered "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels..."  Since the subject of 1 Cor. 13 is love, Paul is not addressing the issue of being able to speak with the tongues of angels.

Yet some believe that there is a "prayer language" or a "prayer tongue" which is not a human tongue.  If anything, they claim, it is the tongues of angels.  I have yet to see any substantial Biblical evidence that there is a special "prayer tongue" or even that God has gifted the Body with the ability to speak in the tongues of angels.  There is the "unknown tongue" spoken of in 1 Cor. 14, but I do not believe this to be an example of a "prayer tongue."  It could simply be a tongue that it not known by the congregation, since the context of Paul's discourse is the church meetings.

I cannot say that any of the gifts have passed away.  I do believe that they are use by God as they were in the first century church, however.  The manifestations of the gifts today do not seem as prevailant as they were in the 1st century church.  Why this is I cannot explain.  I think that the Lord uses the member's abilities as He sees fit, not as we seem to want to emphasise; if that makes sense.

Greetings,

I have to agree with God-mans assessment as well as sagz.

All gifts of the Holy Spirit are active and relevant in the church today, as it was in the days of the birth of the church (see 1 Cor).

But one of the most abused gifts, in my opinion, are the gift of tongues. And here is what I have observed in the churches

1) If one does not speak in tongues, some believe you have not been baptised by the Holy Ghost, and some even go as far as to say one is unsaved.

This is not only unscriptural, but it can totally destroy ones faith and cause doubt in ones salvation. The one for whom Christ died, My wife and I are two of those to whom this almost happened.

But praise be to God He led me into deeper study and made it very clear to me, that not all speak in tongues , The greater gift is prophecy.

2) the tongues are used to bring messages to the church

this also is a false teaching, prophecy is used to bring a message to the church, not prophecy in respect to future, but in respect to truth written in the word of God, for the edification of the church.

Paul says in 1 Cor 14:2 "for he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God

Verse 3 "but he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification and ehortation and comfort."

can someone show me where it is written or show me an example where some delivers a message from God to the church in an unknown tongue.

3) tongues are a prayer language

Where is it written that this is so? Tongues are a manifestation of the Spirit to unbelievers, that God is indeed active in His people.

4) We speak in a language other than one that is already spoken some where.

This too I dont see any scriptural reference to where this is true. I do see where they were spoken and understood by others of known languages.

5) we speak in the tongues of angels

Again where does it say this? Paul says if I speak, again if I speak in the tongues of angels.

The KJV says though I speak

He was not saying that we speak in the tongues of angels, he was showing the supremecy of love over any gift distributed , because it is by love that they were distributed in the first place, and love is the true manifestation of God. It is also Gods greatest gift to mankind.

I dont mean to offend anybody here, But some preach that tongues is a manifestation that one has been baptised in the Holy Spirit and without this manifestation, one is void of the Holy Ghost.

This simply is not true and is a very dangerous teaching, I see it destroy more people than it brings closer to the Lord.

An example is one feels that God has rejected them because they dont speak in tongues. This unfortunately is what many tongue talkers lead one to believe in not so many words.

Where in the bible does it say that one has to pray through to get the gift of tongues or where is an example?

I've heard people speak in tongues where all that is spoken is dah, dah, dah, dah, and so on and so on. Is this real? or do they not want to seem un-spiritual to others. If so this is not of faith and again very dangerous to this individual, for it is not of faith.

The gifts are very much alive in the church today, but not to make one spritual, but for the edification of the body, and not for ones own personal use.

God bless and I hope I didnt offend anybody, but there is such an abuse of the gifts of God today, that we need to get before God and get on track and use them for the purpose they were intended for in the first place.

For the edification and the building up of the body of Christ.

In Jesus

Kevin

[Guest shadow2b]

-------AHHHHH--YESSS--BRO.DAD----YEPPP you have done {IT} AGAIN----EXPLAINED SO beautifully

the very {THING} i could NOT but tried to in my CRUDE-& INarticulate WAY------

----------THANK YOU DAD---------

WELLLLLLLLL,BROTHER--S4{in the army that stands for:"SPECIALIST-4TH.CLASS"}

--{"spec.4"--"SPECIAL"}

YOU'RE RIGHT------I AM WRONG-----AGAIN----

Which is EXactly what i told someone "new" on the board just the other day{that they would probably "SEE" me MESSUP & have to APOLOGIZE to SOMEONE--A BROTHER} for being----

-------STUPID------

WeLL HERE I ARE -AGAIN----APOLOGIZING-------TO A BROTHER-----

FOR BEING----- -------STUPID-----

SO I'LL try ta SPLAIN "WHY" i get SO UPSET when the gift --ANY gift given by the HOLY-SPIRIT is

{in my opinion} "vilified or rejected or frowned upon"---IT is just incomprehensible to me that anyone would NOT want to receive "anything" "any" gift or "tool" {for lack of a better word}--

That GOD supplies--offers or presents to HIS children to "USE" for their instruction--understanding

OR used to "speak" to HIS children--whether they are alone with HIM & praising--worshipping--

drawing closer to HIM or IN the "church setting body"to edify--buildUP-correct or warn that church body about something that is going to happen in the future----like--for instance---David Wilkerson's

church-Times Square Church--in NY city was {called to prayer} BY GOD --the HOLY-SPIRIT-JESUS--

shortly before the 9-11---attack--they didnot KNOW "WHAT" was going to happen just that some "CATASTROPHE" was going to happen in NY city----& this "CALL TO PRAYER" was just about 30days "BEFORE" 9-11-----

--- SUPER--SPIRITUALIST???---YES YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT BRO. "THAT" was UNcalled for-as was it ALL------I DO ASK YOU TO PLEASE FORGIVE ME-------????

I AM TERRIBLY SORRY I SHOCKED & HURT YOU SO DEEPLY----I APOLOGIZE TO YOU AGAIN---PLEASE FORGIVE ME---????----YES I should have "KNOWN YOU BETTER" to think you would "THINK YOU ARE PERFECT" WeLL you can "SEE" IT IS OBVIOUS I AM ABSOLUTELY NOT PERFECT OR ANY WHERE

CLOSE TO IT YET-----Sheeeesssshhhhhh---I AM "HARD" TO PUT UP WITH BRO.{just ask dove2}

WeLL {S4} my BROTHER i guess i BETTER shutUP before i offend you again{inadvertently}SO----

once again-----PLEASE FORGIVE ME[your brother} for my "tirade" I will redouble my efforts to "try" to "explain" my thoughts on any subject in a MORE "brotherly-loving way-------

GOD-BLESS-ALL-TRUTHSEEKERS---------{your brother?hopefully?}--Gary-- :il: :x:

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings JesusisGod2,

I dont mean to offend anybody here, But some preach that tongues is a manifestation that one has been baptised in the Holy Spirit and without this manifestation, one is void of the Holy Ghost.

This simply is not true and is a very dangerous teaching, I see it destroy more people than it brings closer to the Lord.

Some of what you say I, of course, disagree with, but I do agree with this statement. In their eagerness and zealousness, some have "pushed" tongues onto people over that of "love". By doing this, they have humiliated some and driven some from the church. It is God who gives this gift and THEN it is recognized by the church. I wish that ALL had this gift because it DOES edify the believing speaker. But all that is required to be "born again" is to believe on the Name of Jesus Christ, to pick up their cross and follow Him, and to perservere (in Him) even when everything seems to be going down the tubes. We can't do this by the will of man, but it MUST be by the Spirit of God.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie