Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[khalou]

Can I ask you where you are located? and if I may be so bold how old you are? Just curious, if I'm stepping over bounds I apologize.

I pray for you all the time and I guess I just want you to know that my heart is there for you

Southern California, 46.

k

[khalou]

I understand the dynamics of how religion works, and am therefore exempt from its benefits. All religions that have lasted for a long time have evolved into very powerful methods of influencing one's perceptions for the better, and anyone who can truly buy into one of them will reap those benefits. The problem is, once you understand the dynamic of this, you are incapable of buying into it! I hope you see the profound truth in this, because I believe it is one of the most profound truths there is.

This is interesting. Care to start a thread to share this "profound truth" about "the dynamics of how religion works," or do you think sharing this knowledge is too dangerous--that it would violently rip the blinds off the heads of the faithful on this forum and create cataclysm that would ripple throughout the Christian, Islamic, and Hindu worlds destroying everything in its path?

(Sorry if you answered this already. I haven't been following this thread.)

First of all, I LOVE the way you turn a phrase!

I'm not sure I want to go into it on a Christian board. Not necessarily for the reasons you describe, but because it is my truth, and my truth only. Others may share it, but none here wil, so it would only be fodder for negative reactions that I couldn't possibly counter.

k

[khalou]

Grace to you,

Bless you Khalou,

Hi Dave,

My revelation? I had several, all the time. Jesus was the great truth in my life. No matter what happened, or where I looked, there He was, making sense of a senseless world. He was my love, and my inspiration. I'm not just speaking poetically here either. What would make Jesus proud of me? What would hurt Him? Whenever I sought His guidance, I was given the most perfect path to follow- one that transcended my own ingenuity, my own intellect. It wasn't always (hardly ever) the easiest path to follow, but always "felt" right. Through prayer, and study of His word, I could depend on Him to show me the path of love, righteousness, and faithful obedience to my Creator.

I instinctively knew when I'd trodden off the path set for me, but something inside me always told me that I'd done so, and, in every one of these circumstances, there He was, arms outstretched, to hold me and love me and forgive me and allow me to start again. It is a strict lifestyle, but one that allows that I am human, and one that teaches daily how incredible Jesus must have been to be able to internally know what path to follow without instruction. Truly the only human to ever have been able to do this, because He was God.

Of course, all along the way, there were moments of intense revelation, where tears and a broken heart would take me back to the base metal of my being, only to be reconstructed from scratch as a new being in Christ. I wanted more than anything else to be used as a tool to insure God's will on earth be done, and any part I could play, I readily did. My fellowship with other Christians were some of the happiest moments of my life- even now. And my occasional fall into temptation lead to nothing but unhappiness and an acute awareness of my distance from Him.

I looked to the Lord's Prayer, which is one of the most profound things one can find in the whole of the Bible because it tells us how to pray. It never asks for happiness, or money, or health, or earthly freedom, or to find your car keys- but only that the will of God be done on earth, whatever that brings me- bring it on!

I stumbled onto cocaine for awhile in my youth. I was quite addicted to it, though it all started out playfully. I am proud to say that I beat that addiction with only the help of my former faith- whenever I found myself in the depths of its influence, sweating and rocking and wondering how I could get more, I would recite the Bible. This is still a very special verse to me, and I highly recommend it to any Christian who finds themselves in such a dilemma-

"Create in me a clean heart, Oh God.

And renew a right spirit within me.

Cast me not away from thy presence.

And take not thy Holy Spirit from me.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation

And uphold me in thy free spirit.

I went between "thy free spirit" and "thy clean spirit" as the muse took me- depending on how I felt. God didn't seem to mind.

It worked. Jesus was there with me, and I knew that I didn't really want that stuff- Jesus' love was sufficient. I wanted those things again.

I suppose that could qualify as a revelation as well.

k

I'm not trying to over analyze your post here. However I will say that it sounds kinda (to borrow a phrase from Yod) Clinical. When in reality I have found my Faith and Relationship with the Lord to be REAL and kinda MESSY. I am the one making a mess out of it.

It was done in haste. I assure you that your description sounds familiar.

I'm never ever looking to make Jesus proud of me. I simply can't. I can only Obey it is better than sacrifice.

My friend Jesus would be very proud of me at times. He celebrated my every victory over the flesh with me.

My walk with the Lord began when I realized how far off the mark I was. That I was indeed sinful and in need of Salvation. How did this come to pass? When I had a Revelation of the Lord. This Revelation came from hearing (for formerly I was deaf) and hearing came from the Word. (The Word is Living and active, sharper than a double edged Sword. It cut across the death of my life and exposed my heart to the Word. Which in turn brought forth repentance unto New Life not sorrow and more death).

Once again, sounds familiar, except that I'd been raised knowing that I needed a savior.

Jesus didn't come to make me feel better about myself. Quite the contrary. He came to die for my sins. To die my death which I was in turn living. To rise so that I could have New Life.

You are preaching to a former choir member.

Maybe your experience has been one of what you have described here?

All religions have evolved into very powerful methods of influencing one's perceptions for the better, and anyone who can truly buy into one of them will reap those benefits.

In this case I can see how your experience may have been a mean one.

God has asked us to set aside everything else and put Him first. This is actually hard, real, and messy. To seek after the Kingdom of Heaven and not our happiness. The Blessing of Peace follows on the heals of Obedience. Yet still and all Jesus hasn't promised us ,"No trouble", in the world. However what He has promised is that He has overcome the world. We too shall, Yet not always will it be wrapped up into a neat little box because we are real and so is He and He understands our nature. This is why He has given us a new one.

Joh

[khalou]

Grace to you,

Khalou,

I had another thought as well.

Have you ever looked deep inside yourself. Not in search of God. For He surely cannot be found there. Yet to examine yourself in Light of the Revelation of Him.

You have admitted that you defeated Cocaine through the Power of God. Only could Jesus Christ accomplish this. Yet now you have absolved yourself of Him. What Hope in you is there of holding back the onslaught of Cocaine?

That is a very good question. I am fortunate that I am no longer living in such a place where street violence and drugs are prevalent. Matter of fact, I don't suppose I'll ever see anyone doing cocaine again in my life. But I honestly can't answer you because I know that I couldn't do it without the help of some perceived power greater than myself.

The Lord was tempted in Matthew 4. He was tempted for the greater Glory of God. The onslaught was this though. "If you are the son of God" not only once but twice. Secondly He was offered everything in this world, a momentary fleeting passing thing, if only He would worship satan. Yet He knew the Love of God the Father and also knew that these things were temporal. He defeated His flesh and walked on past the temptation, even rebuking it and the Tempter.

What enabled Him to do this to pass this Test, this Tempting?

First He did not believe the lie. He believed the Word of God. He was indeed the Son of God. Secondly, He knew that this world was a passing fleeting thing. A Momentary Pleasure and then it would be gone. The promises of His Father were so much very more weighty. He had a Hope that surpassed His temporary circumstance and although He at the time could have equated God with being Mean or even abadoning Him to the Test. He knew the natrure of God the Father and that He was indeed Good. Righteous, Holy, Just, and Truth. Despite His current circumstance, which was one of extreme hunger, likely thirst as well as the overwhelming desire of His Flesh for the comforts of this world. He pushed past all of thatand knew the Eternal Hope of God.

The tempter in that story was kind of an oaf. "I'll give you these plots of land when you already own the earth, the universe, and the Kingdom of God". "Hey, here's an idea- jump off of this cliff, and angels will catch you, wouldn't that be a rush?" Just between you and me, the Satan of that story must have been stoned. "Hey, you seem hungry. Why don't you make some food out of these rocks?" I mean, COME ON! The Son of God is going to start His ministry, and will follow the rules in order to do so, and someone else has to suggest to Him that He could make food? Like He hadn't already been aware of that?

I always wondered about that story.

Ah' Scripture is indeed True when it says this;

Heb

[khalou]

Okay, I give up. My responses will be in blue-

Do you have any questions about Jesus?

Not right now.

I think Nebula could talk about space with you...

But not you, huh?

Maybe but I'm not interested. It is a waste of time on an irrelevant subject.

In other words...

Not right now.

Edited October 13, 2006 by khalou

[Copper Scroll]

I understand the dynamics of how religion works, and am therefore exempt from its benefits. All religions that have lasted for a long time have evolved into very powerful methods of influencing one's perceptions for the better, and anyone who can truly buy into one of them will reap those benefits. The problem is, once you understand the dynamic of this, you are incapable of buying into it! I hope you see the profound truth in this, because I believe it is one of the most profound truths there is.

This is interesting. Care to start a thread to share this "profound truth" about "the dynamics of how religion works," or do you think sharing this knowledge is too dangerous--that it would violently rip the blinds off the heads of the faithful on this forum and create cataclysm that would ripple throughout the Christian, Islamic, and Hindu worlds destroying everything in its path?

(Sorry if you answered this already. I haven't been following this thread.)

First of all, I LOVE the way you turn a phrase!

I'm not sure I want to go into it on a Christian board. Not necessarily for the reasons you describe, but because it is my truth, and my truth only. Others may share it, but none here wil, so it would only be fodder for negative reactions that I couldn't possibly counter.

k

But you said "once you understand the dynamic of [how religion works]", implying that anyone who knows what you know cannot be fooled by religion... like knowing how a magic trick works makes it so that it isn't magic for you.

Sure--if you share this secret knowledge and understanding you possess that places you above religion, then you will get a negative reaction... but I doubt it will be any more negative than the reaction you've already gotten....

[Guest yod]

b

Okay, I give up. My responses will be in blue-

it's not that hard once you understand the science behind it

If you think it would be a waste of time speak on scientific issues, then why are we conversing?

just trying to help you understand why hardly anyone here would be interested in trying to "prove God" using science.

Actually, it can't take us very far at all. Who told you that?

Are you saying that science has no practical use?

How do you get from "Science can't take us very far" to "Science is of no practical use"?

I was quoting you who said it can't take us very far. You had resposponded to my comment that it could take us far in this world.

Do you remember it yet?

You're serious? I don't know where to start!

well I can see that!??!

People believed the earth was flat because they didn't have any evidence to suggest otherwise until SCIENCE started looking at the subject.

Oh c'mon....are you trying to say that no people who considered themselves scientists ever thought the world was flat?

There was more than a Pope upset with Galileo and Copernicus

Science showed that the earth was a sphere LONG before the Church ever did.

The Vatican? Yes. Hard to argue that so I won't.

I don't recognize the Vatican as any kind of authority or "voice" for all believers. It is a political entity for running the Roman Catholic empire.

But as you mentioned here :

It's in the Bible that the earth was the circular disk with the stars and planets and the moon tracking across the dome of the sky that all of the ancient world thought it was.

Isaiah mentioned the sphere of the Earth centuries before the birth of Yeshua.

Then how can you say that science is dismissive about anything that points to God?

because it is outside the realm of science

I don't think there is any science that shows evidence of God. Matter of fact, something like that would be impossible. Either the creator God has made sure of this, or there is no God- either way could be true.

He has said that only those who seek Him with their whole heart will find Him.

Yea...He's tricky that way

Sorry. I got carried away. For all I know, the truth of evolution wouldn't be a deal-breaker for your faith. After all, it shouldn't be.

the order of Creation is supported by scientific claims. For Moses to have gotten the order right is of infantecimal odds.

I have these discussions with christians all the time. "Yom" is rendered as "day" in the Bible but is not a specific length of time (such as 24 hours). It can be .06 nanoseconds or it can be 60 trillion years. Each Yom (day) of the Creation story can be of a different length using the original languages instead of an english translation.

However, evolution is called a "theory" for a reason. So far evolutionists have never been able to show where one species turned into a another species anywhere on the evolutionary chain. And if you throw a fish on the shore a billion times a day for a billion years it isn't going to grow legs and lungs.

You are only going to have a lot of dead fish.

[Floatingaxe]

I understand the dynamics of how religion works, and am therefore exempt from its benefits. All religions that have lasted for a long time have evolved into very powerful methods of influencing one's perceptions for the better, and anyone who can truly buy into one of them will reap those benefits. The problem is, once you understand the dynamic of this, you are incapable of buying into it! I hope you see the profound truth in this, because I believe it is one of the most profound truths there is.

I am a bit behind in following this thread, but I did catch this. How lofty and self-absorbed this view is. It is proof that you are believing a lie, served up on a silver platter. You have fallen for this delicacy! Woe to you, friend. You have made yourself your own god.

In Jesus name, I now bind that spirit of the lie and cast it down, cancelling the agenda of Satan in your life. Open your spiritual eyes and see the Christ who loves you and gave His life for you.

How lofty and self-absorbed this view is! It is proof that you are believing a lie, served up on the silver platter of religion! You have fallen for the easy way out! Woe to you!

Axe, I don't mean to insult you, but you insult me. Please, at least, put some effort into trying to understand the reasons behind our positions before casting us as having fallen under Satan's influence?

Why should I dress up the truth? You are under the influence of Satan...no doubt about it.

[khalou]

I understand the dynamics of how religion works, and am therefore exempt from its benefits. All religions that have lasted for a long time have evolved into very powerful methods of influencing one's perceptions for the better, and anyone who can truly buy into one of them will reap those benefits. The problem is, once you understand the dynamic of this, you are incapable of buying into it! I hope you see the profound truth in this, because I believe it is one of the most profound truths there is.

This is interesting. Care to start a thread to share this "profound truth" about "the dynamics of how religion works," or do you think sharing this knowledge is too dangerous--that it would violently rip the blinds off the heads of the faithful on this forum and create cataclysm that would ripple throughout the Christian, Islamic, and Hindu worlds destroying everything in its path?

(Sorry if you answered this already. I haven't been following this thread.)

First of all, I LOVE the way you turn a phrase!

I'm not sure I want to go into it on a Christian board. Not necessarily for the reasons you describe, but because it is my truth, and my truth only. Others may share it, but none here wil, so it would only be fodder for negative reactions that I couldn't possibly counter.

k

But you said "once you understand the dynamic of [how religion works]", implying that anyone who knows what you know cannot be fooled by religion... like knowing how a magic trick works makes it so that it isn't magic for you.

Sure--if you share this secret knowledge and understanding you possess that places you above religion, then you will get a negative reaction... but I doubt it will be any more negative than the reaction you've already gotten....

Good point, but I don't think I've gotten a negative reaction here. I respect your faith, and as a matter of fact, am trying to defend it to the best of my ability. It is, after all, a faith.

But it isn't only Christian boards that I post on. I go to Islamic boards, and Judaic boards, and even pagan boards. I defend their faiths as well, because they are faiths and I am fortunate enough to be an American and don't believe in authoritarianism of any kind.

What I find is that religious people are absolutely devoted to their Gods and are very happy with their interpretations of death, illness, incapacitation, ill fortune and the like. Religious traditions that have been around for a very long time will provide a worldview that provides comfort in times of trial and tribulation because each and every hardship has been incorporated into the religion and a way to interpret that hardship within a comforting frame of reference that has already been considered and supplied.

How else could the populations of the middle ages have dealt with an extremely rich class while they rotted? How else could the dusty bands in the Middle East find contentment with their insanely rich leadership? How else could the American poor not go on a rampage as their incomes and benefits for their labor increasingly be siphoned off to shareholders and the corporate few?

Allah has ordained it.

Do you think that the Mullah's of the Middle East really believe in suicide bombing? Do you think that Jerry Falwell really believes in the teachings of Christ?

I look at Gandhi and see a man who absolutely SCREAMS "JESUS", because he is willing to live the life of the faithful, and I look at Benny Hinn and wonder to which religion he might be referring with his life. I look at Christians that love their enemy, unless their enemy needs health benefits for their children, and I look at Jesus who had nothing, wanted nothing, didn't count the pennies, didn't chastise others because they were sinners and wonder "What, exactly, is God's will on earth?"

Know what I get to do as an atheist? I get to love the Jews, the Christians, the Muslims, the Hindus, the pagans, the other atheists, the whole of humanity! I get to love my neighbor as myself, I get to love my enemies, I get to render unto Caesar what is Cesar's, I get to judge not, I get to not be proud, but humble, I get to see myself as imperfect, yet love myself, I get to insure as best as I can that everyone gets a fair say in things, I get to investigate the most incredible claims, and give them all the credibility that any new idea deserves, and I get to say that they are wrong because of their merits, not because of my own confidence in some dogma.

In other words, I can be much more what these religions preach without them. They all have very favorable wisdom within their traditions, but they also include ridiculous man-made requirements that only serve to separate humanity into arbitrary groups of good guys and bad guys. We are all good. We all do what we think is best. If we are influenced by a lack of education or goods or services, then we will all do what's best for those we love.

Religions seem to fight against that equality on the grounds that there are certain chosen people who God blesses. I don't have to listen to such silliness. "THERE, BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD, GO I" is probably the most profound statement ever spoken. Not because of what it says, but because of what it means. Were my life to have unfolded as that other person's, I would be in exactly their position, because there is nothing special about me that might make me better than them, or make different choices based on the options.

Live in your little communities of Christianity, but remember this- there is no OUTSIDE- only other people.

Like you.

k

Edited October 13, 2006 by khalou

[Floatingaxe]

Know what I get to do as an atheist? I get to love the Jews, the Christians, the Muslims, the Hindus, the pagans, the other atheists, the whole of humanity! I get to love my neighbor as myself, I get to love my enemies, I get to render unto Caesar what is Cesar's, I get to judge not, I get to not be proud, but humble, I get to see myself as imperfect, yet love myself, I get to insure as best as I can that everyone gets a fair say in things, I get to investigate the most incredible claims, and give them all the credibility that any new idea deserves, and I get to say that they are wrong because of their merits, not because of my own confidence in some dogma.

You GET to do this as an atheist? Under the influence of whom? God! Such a silly statement in the face of the truth that I have to laugh tonight!

Confidence in dogma is not what I have---I have confidence in the person of Jesus Christ, whose Word by His Spirit has given us all these wonderful attributes listed above! It is knowing Christ that we love others and follow after Him in obedience. It doesn't come naturally...if you disbelieve in God, then why do you follow after His Word? It is impossible to do and be all these things without the Holy Spirit's guidance and power in us.