Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[khalou]

I know for a fact that those Spirit-filled believers share my sentiments and my beliefs. I don't worry about that.

You keep up with your snide remarks, khalou--I am blessed beyond measure by them, for it tells me that Truth is invading your territory, and making you uncomfortable. God is working!

As the Holy Spirit lives in me, He tells me what is Truth. I trust Him to do that.

Dude, get a clue.

Learning is about hearing new things. You have not provided me with one new thing since I met you that I can currently remember.

But, no matter what new thing I produce, you are content to just say that it is wrong because you have axioms that can't be challenged. How does that help me?? If you are really interested in making me uncomfortable, why don't you start by countering what I suggest with something more substantial that "I am right"?

The cannon-canon thing was absolutely on target. How about more of that sort of thing?

k

OK. I am a dudette, to you!

Re: something new? From Ecclesiastes 1...

All the rivers flow into the sea,

but the sea never fills up.

The rivers keep flowing to the same old place,

and then start all over and do it again.

Everything's boring, utterly boring

[LightofJesus]

khalou,

I have to say this but I read in between lines I guess or else something else is going on here. You do have a very unique relationship going on I believe. As I prayed for you I really believe the Lord is still using you cause I sence the love of our Father still coming through. I know some people here are going to think I have flipped but I do not count myself religous at all. In fact when people introduce me to someone at times say that I am religous and I am not I am a believer of Jesus Christ. I know what He has done in my life and I know without a doubt there is more! But the biggest thing He has done is carried me through my grief when my husband died, of 23 years. He is faithful and true. I know you know this and I do not know why you are so determined to try and deny Him but like I keep saying I'm still standing for you in Jesus' name! Oh by the way I'm from southern Calif. born and raised! Where in Calif. are you if it is alright to ask?

Catch ya later got to get ready for work!

I call people like you "Jesusists". (not Jesuits )

I know that you hold nothing in your heart but love for me because the message of Jesus in plain in your writing.

You are the type of person that I might meet in life and wonder what makes you so special. Your fruits are your testimony, and more likely to break the heart of an atheist than trying to fight them into submission through earthly wisdom.

Here's what just popped into my mind-

1 Corinthians 13

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

You have shown these words in action.

k

k

You have touched my heart once again and I know that I know in my heart I have touched yours. I was praying again on your behalf and I sence from our Lord that you still are written in the palm of His hand He will never leave you my brother nor will I!

Oh by the way you did not answer one question, where are you located in Calif.? I lived in Anaheim area, but born in San Gabrial, gee I think I spelled that wrong.

Well once again I have to get ready for work I will continue to pray! Thank you so much for the scripture it has filled my heart with joy

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Khalou,

If you want to know what I REALLY think, I must ask that no one chastise me for saying it here. After all, you asked- twice!

I think that there were many sects within the Jewish faith at the time of Jesus. I think there were other Rabbis like Jesus at the head of these sects. We know that miracles were pretty normal at the time, and that there were many that could perform them. I truly believe that Jesus was very much Jewish, and held the deepest respect for the Jewish religion. There is lots and lots of evidence that this is true.

I believe that Saul of Tarsus joined the group after the loss of their leader, and changed his name to Paul. I believe that Paul wanted to bring the religion to gentiles, and I don't believe Paul really treated Jesus as a physical person when he started his churches. Paul seemed to be speaking about a Mystery religion like the ones the gentiles were used to. James and Peter's church disagreed with Paul's treatment of Jesus' truths. It sounds a lot like they didn't like the idea that Paul was trying to make it a non-Jewish religion that was quite outside of the traditions of the Torah, which Jesus absolutely upheld.

The people that wrote the Gospels were not Jewish, nor were they eyewitnesses. Even Christian Biblical scholars believe this. Instead, they were re-writing the life of Jesus in order to fit in with this new version of the religion. Of all the gospels, the only ones that were canonized were the ones that went along with this new ideology, and were included in the Bible by the same non-Jews that decided on Dec 25 as the day of His birth, and that Sunday should be the Sabbath. What was that, like in the second century CE?? It's no wonder that the Jews couldn't believe their ears when they heard about Christianity. One of the Ten Commandments, perhaps the easiest one, is to simply remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, yet these people actually changed it!

All of the other gospels that have been found that didn't make it into the cannon, including the documentation of the oral tradition of the sayings of Jesus, are quite Jewish.

Meanwhile, the Gospels actually make mistakes about the Hebrew traditions of Jesus' time, and even geographical mistakes as well.

k

You still haven't told me who Jesus is.

From this I will infer that you believe Him to have been a Jewish Rabbi.

Irregardless He, Jesus Christ, turned Rabbinical thought of the day on it's head when He had this to say;

Joh

[Floatingaxe]

Well she does a great job per my Bible!

So, when she speaks, this little old Christian man puts his ears on and pays attention!

Also, I do think you make up fables about my big Brothers (OT) total lack of understanding of Satan!

Starting in Genesis and rolling through Job and on to the end of the first scriptures, through Malachi, these Saints were taught in The Bible about the evil Satan!

I would not doubt they are a whole bunch smarter then me and even I get the point!

So, when you state they were clueless about the Devil's evilness, I become speechless!

Love, Joe

She?? I had no idea!

Why are you people giving me such problems on such a slam-dunk point? The ancient Hebrews didn't believe in the ability of any angel to rebel against God- they didn't. Ever! Ever!

How are you going to make any sense to me if you can't even show me why I'm wrong? Why are you even talking to me? I know for a fact that God brought both good and evil, created both the light and the darkness in the camps of the Hebrews. I know this. They know this. If you wish to make a point that makes any sense to me at all, then tell me why they are wrong when they interpret their own sacred text in the way that they do. They are religious, just like you are. I am not. I listen to them, and they make sense. I ask you about it, and you come up with "I never heard of that", and "that can't be", but never tell my why you think so in light of their beliefs.

Try it.

k

Why, oh why do you think you are right about the Hebrew people? I gotta know! Do you think that they were insulated from seeing the work of evil spirits in the lives and cities of the pagans? Do you think they never witnessed just what Satan's power did through pagan priests?

They knew who Satan/Lucifer was alright. They knew that Satan sought to sift Job, and cause him to curse God, just as he does himself!

The "fight" between the devil and God came to the forefront and I believe was heightened when Satan could no longer prevent the birth of the Messiah, Jesus! He had to show his hand a bit more then, even blatantly confronting Jesus himself in his desperation, as Jesus began His full-fledged ministry. He knew his time was about up!

Just because there is more mention of Satan in the New Testament doesn't mean that he wasn't known to mankind and especially Israel. Job lived way before Israel! He is mentioned more prominently simply because the battle is now easily observed. The King has come! Satan is mad! He failed at preventing Jesus Christ from coming! The gig is up!

[SoulGrind]

"Interestingly, the Hebrews never believed in a messiah like Jesus, never believed in a devil, never believed in hell, and certainly never believed in pagan stories of a God-Man that died for the sins of the world.

They still don't to this day."

You must not have ever talked to a Jew who believed in Jesus as Messiah then.

I have. I wasn't talking about Jews who believe that now. I was talking about Abraham, David, Moses, Noah, people like that.

None of them had ever heard of a devil or hell.

k

As we know, Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).

As we can see here, from the book of Deuteronomy, we have mention of HELL

"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest HELL, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

[Deuteronomy 32:22 - KJV]

As we know, David is the author of the book of Psalms. The King James Bible mentions HELL seven times in the book of Psalms.

In fact, HELL is mentioned a total of 31 times in the Old Testament (King James) and as we know, the Old Testament is the Jewish (Hebrew) Bible.

Also, the Jews do believe in a coming Messiah - the problem however is they did not believe that Jesus was that Messiah.

Please, oh please, do a little research before making such statements. You don't even need to read the Bible to find such answers - just look in a concordance.

Edited October 16, 2006 by SoulGrind

[SoulGrind]

But as long as believers judge non-believers according to their worldview, then they will never be able to even engage non-believers in conversation, because Jesus was absolutely correct in His treatment of people. That's right, an atheist agrees with Jesus' treatment of non-believers, and if Christians actually adopted His treatment of non-believers, then there would be a discernible impact on the non-believers' opinion of Christians.

AMEN Brother khalou!

While you are an admitted atheist, and I am an admitted Christian - I do believe you have hit the proverbial nail on the head!!!!

I would like to take a moment to clarify something however from a doctrinal standpoint. What we (obviously) experience in reality is very different however.

You said, "But as long as believers judge non-believers according to their worldview..." One thing to keep in mind, as Christians, we are not supposed to pass judgment. We are called to spread the "Good News" of Christ. This is achieved by the following:

1.) Testifying about what God has done for us (this is called testimony/witnessing).

This is an area that most Christians seem to forget - we're not called to be "Bible Thumpers". We as Christians recognize the good works of God, therefore we are a WITNESS.

Then as Christians, we are to tell the world what we have "witnessed" - this is our TESTIMONY.

Now the question is, how do we get people's attention so that ask "What's different about this person?"

2.) Good works

The Bible says that faith without works is dead. As Christian's we are not only called to give a testimony, but we are called to "walk to talk". According to the Bible, you can recognize a fellow Christian by the "fruit" they bear - in other words - are they backing their faith up with good works?

This is where you, khalou, have pointed out that "...if Christians actually adopted His treatment of non-believers, then there would be a discernible impact on the non-believers' opinion of Christians."

Honestly, I have no choice but to agree with you. Even I, as a Christian admit to having done things that do not speak well of the doctrine of Christ. In fact, the majority of so-called Christians in this world don't bear the fruit of the spirit. And as an outsider, you are keenly aware of this.

It's no wonder that in the day of Christ and of the Apostle Paul that there were so many converts in favor of the Christian faith. If we read about the life of Christ and the life of Paul, they were setting the example for ALL Christian's to follow. And it was a very good example. It's the kind of thing that turned heads and made people stop and think "Hmmm... Maybe there is something to this Christian thing after all."

But in today

Edited October 16, 2006 by SoulGrind

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Khalou

[Floatingaxe]

Grace to you,

Khalou

[SoulGrind]

I apologize if my point was not very clear in my previous message.

I used the term "brother" as a unifying term among mankind - we are all of the human race - therefore, we are all brothers. I do not claim that Khalou is a brother in Christ - by his own admission, he is not.

I did not intend to point fingers at anyone in particular - my point was simply to say that as Christians, we need to act like Christ to show the way for those who do not know Christ.

In light of Khalou's statement about how he feels many (so-called) Christians do not walk-the-talk, I would have to agree. I have been privy to such people myself (here on Worthy Boards and offline as well). And as previously stated, I too have been guilty of this sin at times.

If we all take a quick inner look at ourselves, I think we can all honestly agree that there are times in our lives when each and everyone of us have not been very Christ-like - and who knows what kind of an effect this may have had on someone who has witnessed our actions.

I never meant so sound "judgmental" or "chastising". Just affirming our main goal - to be Christ-like in our walk and spread the gospel accordingly.

This is all I was trying to point out.

Edited October 16, 2006 by SoulGrind

[khalou]

Grace to you,

Khalou,

If you want to know what I REALLY think, I must ask that no one chastise me for saying it here. After all, you asked- twice!

I think that there were many sects within the Jewish faith at the time of Jesus. I think there were other Rabbis like Jesus at the head of these sects. We know that miracles were pretty normal at the time, and that there were many that could perform them. I truly believe that Jesus was very much Jewish, and held the deepest respect for the Jewish religion. There is lots and lots of evidence that this is true.

I believe that Saul of Tarsus joined the group after the loss of their leader, and changed his name to Paul. I believe that Paul wanted to bring the religion to gentiles, and I don't believe Paul really treated Jesus as a physical person when he started his churches. Paul seemed to be speaking about a Mystery religion like the ones the gentiles were used to. James and Peter's church disagreed with Paul's treatment of Jesus' truths. It sounds a lot like they didn't like the idea that Paul was trying to make it a non-Jewish religion that was quite outside of the traditions of the Torah, which Jesus absolutely upheld.

The people that wrote the Gospels were not Jewish, nor were they eyewitnesses. Even Christian Biblical scholars believe this. Instead, they were re-writing the life of Jesus in order to fit in with this new version of the religion. Of all the gospels, the only ones that were canonized were the ones that went along with this new ideology, and were included in the Bible by the same non-Jews that decided on Dec 25 as the day of His birth, and that Sunday should be the Sabbath. What was that, like in the second century CE?? It's no wonder that the Jews couldn't believe their ears when they heard about Christianity. One of the Ten Commandments, perhaps the easiest one, is to simply remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, yet these people actually changed it!

All of the other gospels that have been found that didn't make it into the cannon, including the documentation of the oral tradition of the sayings of Jesus, are quite Jewish.

Meanwhile, the Gospels actually make mistakes about the Hebrew traditions of Jesus' time, and even geographical mistakes as well.

k

You still haven't told me who Jesus is.

From this I will infer that you believe Him to have been a Jewish Rabbi.

Irregardless He, Jesus Christ, turned Rabbinical thought of the day on it's head when He had this to say;

Joh