Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[khalou]

Well she does a great job per my Bible!

So, when she speaks, this little old Christian man puts his ears on and pays attention!

Also, I do think you make up fables about my big Brothers (OT) total lack of understanding of Satan!

Starting in Genesis and rolling through Job and on to the end of the first scriptures, through Malachi, these Saints were taught in The Bible about the evil Satan!

I would not doubt they are a whole bunch smarter then me and even I get the point!

So, when you state they were clueless about the Devil's evilness, I become speechless!

Love, Joe

She?? I had no idea!

Why are you people giving me such problems on such a slam-dunk point? The ancient Hebrews didn't believe in the ability of any angel to rebel against God- they didn't. Ever! Ever!

How are you going to make any sense to me if you can't even show me why I'm wrong? Why are you even talking to me? I know for a fact that God brought both good and evil, created both the light and the darkness in the camps of the Hebrews. I know this. They know this. If you wish to make a point that makes any sense to me at all, then tell me why they are wrong when they interpret their own sacred text in the way that they do. They are religious, just like you are. I am not. I listen to them, and they make sense. I ask you about it, and you come up with "I never heard of that", and "that can't be", but never tell my why you think so in light of their beliefs.

Try it.

k

Why, oh why do you think you are right about the Hebrew people? I gotta know! Do you think that they were insulated from seeing the work of evil spirits in the lives and cities of the pagans? Do you think they never witnessed just what Satan's power did through pagan priests?

They knew who Satan/Lucifer was alright. They knew that Satan sought to sift Job, and cause him to curse God, just as he does himself!

The "fight" between the devil and God came to the forefront and I believe was heightened when Satan could no longer prevent the birth of the Messiah, Jesus! He had to show his hand a bit more then, even blatantly confronting Jesus himself in his desperation, as Jesus began His full-fledged ministry. He knew his time was about up!

Just because there is more mention of Satan in the New Testament doesn't mean that he wasn't known to mankind and especially Israel. Job lived way before Israel! He is mentioned more prominently simply because the battle is now easily observed. The King has come! Satan is mad! He failed at preventing Jesus Christ from coming! The gig is up!

Ask 'em.

k

[Floatingaxe]

The gospel writers said that He said those things. The gospel writers also said things that weren't true. Earlier writings didn't have Jesus saying those things.

The Gospel writers never said anything that was NOT true! The Word of God is infallible.

[SoulGrind]

The gospel writers also said things that weren't true.

Which "things" do you refer to?

Earlier writings didn't have Jesus saying those things.

Please provide evidence to support your statement.

So, in answer to your question, I am quite prepared to say something that is easy for non-believes to say, but quite impossible for believes to say- "I don't know".

You are quite wrong - there are MANY times I've had to answer both believers and non-believers with "I don't know." We are finite man - we are incapable of knowing eveything there is to know - especially concerning the "thoughts" (for a lack of a better word) of God that have yet to be revealed to us.

[khalou]

"Interestingly, the Hebrews never believed in a messiah like Jesus, never believed in a devil, never believed in hell, and certainly never believed in pagan stories of a God-Man that died for the sins of the world.

They still don't to this day."

You must not have ever talked to a Jew who believed in Jesus as Messiah then.

I have. I wasn't talking about Jews who believe that now. I was talking about Abraham, David, Moses, Noah, people like that.

None of them had ever heard of a devil or hell.

k

As we know, Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).

As we can see here, from the book of Deuteronomy, we have mention of HELL

"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest HELL, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

[Deuteronomy 32:22 - KJV]

As we know, David is the author of the book of Psalms. The King James Bible mentions HELL seven times in the book of Psalms.

In fact, HELL is mentioned a total of 31 times in the Old Testament (King James) and as we know, the Old Testament is the Jewish (Hebrew) Bible.

Also, the Jews do believe in a coming Messiah - the problem however is they did not believe that Jesus was that Messiah.

Please, oh please, do a little research before making such statements. You don't even need to read the Bible to find such answers - just look in a concordance.

I guess you aren't knoledgeable about what Christian scholars themselves believe. According to Christian scholars, Moses didn't write the first five books of the Bible.

Why don't you read my back posts about your verses? So far, since I wrote them, no one has come to say that I was wrong.

k

[SoulGrind]

The gospel writers said that He said those things. The gospel writers also said things that weren't true. Earlier writings didn't have Jesus saying those things.

The Gospel writers never said anything that was NOT true! The Word of God is infallible.

AMEN (and thank God) for that!

[Floatingaxe]

Well she does a great job per my Bible!

So, when she speaks, this little old Christian man puts his ears on and pays attention!

Also, I do think you make up fables about my big Brothers (OT) total lack of understanding of Satan!

Starting in Genesis and rolling through Job and on to the end of the first scriptures, through Malachi, these Saints were taught in The Bible about the evil Satan!

I would not doubt they are a whole bunch smarter then me and even I get the point!

So, when you state they were clueless about the Devil's evilness, I become speechless!

Love, Joe

She?? I had no idea!

Why are you people giving me such problems on such a slam-dunk point? The ancient Hebrews didn't believe in the ability of any angel to rebel against God- they didn't. Ever! Ever!

How are you going to make any sense to me if you can't even show me why I'm wrong? Why are you even talking to me? I know for a fact that God brought both good and evil, created both the light and the darkness in the camps of the Hebrews. I know this. They know this. If you wish to make a point that makes any sense to me at all, then tell me why they are wrong when they interpret their own sacred text in the way that they do. They are religious, just like you are. I am not. I listen to them, and they make sense. I ask you about it, and you come up with "I never heard of that", and "that can't be", but never tell my why you think so in light of their beliefs.

Try it.

k

Why, oh why do you think you are right about the Hebrew people? I gotta know! Do you think that they were insulated from seeing the work of evil spirits in the lives and cities of the pagans? Do you think they never witnessed just what Satan's power did through pagan priests?

They knew who Satan/Lucifer was alright. They knew that Satan sought to sift Job, and cause him to curse God, just as he does himself!

The "fight" between the devil and God came to the forefront and I believe was heightened when Satan could no longer prevent the birth of the Messiah, Jesus! He had to show his hand a bit more then, even blatantly confronting Jesus himself in his desperation, as Jesus began His full-fledged ministry. He knew his time was about up!

Just because there is more mention of Satan in the New Testament doesn't mean that he wasn't known to mankind and especially Israel. Job lived way before Israel! He is mentioned more prominently simply because the battle is now easily observed. The King has come! Satan is mad! He failed at preventing Jesus Christ from coming! The gig is up!

Ask 'em.

k

Now that was an opportunity for you to learn something--and you give us glib?

[khalou]

But as long as believers judge non-believers according to their worldview, then they will never be able to even engage non-believers in conversation, because Jesus was absolutely correct in His treatment of people. That's right, an atheist agrees with Jesus' treatment of non-believers, and if Christians actually adopted His treatment of non-believers, then there would be a discernible impact on the non-believers' opinion of Christians.

AMEN Brother khalou!

While you are an admitted atheist, and I am an admitted Christian - I do believe you have hit the proverbial nail on the head!!!!

I would like to take a moment to clarify something however from a doctrinal standpoint. What we (obviously) experience in reality is very different however.

You said, "But as long as believers judge non-believers according to their worldview..." One thing to keep in mind, as Christians, we are not supposed to pass judgment. We are called to spread the "Good News" of Christ. This is achieved by the following:

1.) Testifying about what God has done for us (this is called testimony/witnessing).

This is an area that most Christians seem to forget - we're not called to be "Bible Thumpers". We as Christians recognize the good works of God, therefore we are a WITNESS.

Then as Christians, we are to tell the world what we have "witnessed" - this is our TESTIMONY.

Now the question is, how do we get people's attention so that ask "What's different about this person?"

2.) Good works

The Bible says that faith without works is dead. As Christian's we are not only called to give a testimony, but we are called to "walk to talk". According to the Bible, you can recognize a fellow Christian by the "fruit" they bear - in other words - are they backing their faith up with good works?

This is where you, khalou, have pointed out that "...if Christians actually adopted His treatment of non-believers, then there would be a discernible impact on the non-believers' opinion of Christians."

Honestly, I have no choice but to agree with you. Even I, as a Christian admit to having done things that do not speak well of the doctrine of Christ. In fact, the majority of so-called Christians in this world don't bear the fruit of the spirit. And as an outsider, you are keenly aware of this.

It's no wonder that in the day of Christ and of the Apostle Paul that there were so many converts in favor of the Christian faith. If we read about the life of Christ and the life of Paul, they were setting the example for ALL Christian's to follow. And it was a very good example. It's the kind of thing that turned heads and made people stop and think "Hmmm... Maybe there is something to this Christian thing after all."

But in today

[SoulGrind]

I guess you aren't knoledgeable about what Christian scholars themselves believe.

Quite the contrary - Read on...

According to Christian scholars, Moses didn't write the first five books of the Bible.

Wrong again - not ALL Christian scholars hold to this belief - Read on...

Why don't you read my back posts about your verses? So far, since I wrote them, no one has come to say that I was wrong.

No one has said you were right either - Read on...

Here is an essay outlining the differences in opinion about the authorship of the first five books of the Bible

Edit Link*

As you shall see, there are those who stand firm on the authorship of Moses, and there are those who do not. It is a coin toss in the theological community - however, after reading the evidence, I can't help but agree that Moses is indeed the original author.

[khalou]

Grace to you,

Khalou

[SoulGrind]

You are of the kind of Christian that I was for those forty years. This is exactly what I believed. You are absolutely correct in everything you say. Why would someone want to agree with hateful and condemning people who demand agreement even before their love is granted??

It is people like you that keep me wondering, because those who aren't like you make it plain that they are nothing but human clones of every religion on earth.

So there are two here who can humble themselves and love their enemies? Thank you for your testimony.

A question for you then - why did you abandon your faith after 40 years?

I too have seen plenty of hypocrits in the church - but we are also called to uphold the faith.

I guess my true question is, did you have faith in Christ or did you have faith in the people who make up the church?

Faith in Christ is not a let down - but faith in people can be - and that goes for those who are non-believers as well as believers.

I can't imagine giving up my faith in Christ just because other Christians around me aren't walking the talk.

I know it's a let down, but at the same time, it gives me strength to know that my faith is placed in Christ - not in man.

I'd really be interested in hearing why you are so jaded towards Christianity when it really sounds like your jaded against certain believers and not really towards Christ.

Am I wrong here?