Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[khalou]

I can not speak for the board K but I can for myself it does matter to me that you are no longer a christian, but it matters because the reason you are no longer a christian is the fault of christians. For myself who has never meant you I humbly apologize for failing you and any other who has walked away and I will pray that God will guide me to be a better brother sister and/or friend to those who seek and for you I will pray that you will see we are not all unfeeling and over zealous to the exclusion of others. God Bless

No, it wasn't other Christians.

It happened over a period of time, for basically three reasons that each took awhile to take hold.

Each time, ironically, it was my faith in God that led me to the conclusions I drew until, believe it or not, I didn't think that God would want me to believe in Christianity.

Of course, once that happened, 'twas a hop, skip, and a jump to "how do I know there is a God", and, from there, "I don't".

So you can imagine how interested I am in discovering how Christians maintain their faith in light of these issues. So far, it seems to be because they want to. Responses like "who told you that?" indicate to me that the particular Christan that asked it hadn't ever heard the argument before. But instead of researching the source, and coming up with a fact or two about why it is either wrong, or based on unproven data, they simply give me a Bible verse that tries to dispute it- or worse- a Bible verse that just says that man's wisdom is folly.

I will never believe that a God, any God, wishes people on earth to do things this way.

Diseases are caused by germs.

No, they are caused by evil.

No, look- this germ is shaped in such a way that it can dock with cells and block important nutrients produced naturally in the body. And this germ over here actually docks and changes the cells function. We can make medicines that can either surround these germs so they can't dock with the cells, or block the cell-transforming germs by creating a neutral docking station blocker that prevents them from docking.

In the Bible, verse whatever of book so and so, says that "You are wrong".

I know, I've seen that, but lookey here! This actually happens!

It's a bad example, I know, because the believe happens to be wrong in it. But what about-

Have you read The De Vinci Code?

That evil book?

Well, it sounds interesting.

It's wrong.

Why?

Because it says things that are wrong according to the Bible.

Well, you don't need to Bible to show that the assertions of The De Vinci Code are incorrect, but it would be nice to hear them instead of "I don't believe that, so it's wrong".

Any argument that is based on observation or evidence should be argued with observation or evidence. If I say that there is no God, then you don't have to use evidence to argue that I'm wrong because I can't present any to support my own argument in the first place. But If I say that there is no God because of "evidence", then you are free to use evidence against me, and you will win, because any evidence I might think I have won't be logically supported.

I've written a lot to make my point here. I don't believe a God would want people to abandon thinking in their interactions with others, or to rely on a lesser standard of proof in physical debates than others might.

k

[SoulGrind]

I've written a lot to make my point here. I don't believe a God would want people to abandon thinking in their interactions with others, or to rely on a lesser standard of proof in physical debates than others might.

Khalou - You are correct. If God wanted us to be mindless trolls, He would not have given us a brain - every species of animal on this planet has a brain - most are capable of general emotions such as love and fear. Your pet dog or cat is a prime example of that - so imagine how much more special man is with his ability to think beyond animal instinct.

The Bible implores us to "test the spirits" - in other words... USE YOUR BRAIN.

This is why I (my personal opinion) have such a difficult time with the notion of "Blind Faith."

Yes - I agree, to some extent - we all need a little genuine "Blind Faith" to begin with. It's like fishing around your bedroom in the dark looking for your glasses. You have faith they are in the room, therefore you go looking. But it doesn't become clear until you turn the light on.

God directs us to test the spirits - turn the light on and see for ourselves.

"...Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

[1 John 4:1-3 - KJV]

This passage tells us to use our minds to verify whether a spirit is of God or not.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that requires some cognitive reasoning ability, ergo - the ability to go beyond "Blind Faith."

However, one only need to stub there toe to realize the error in their ways and realize they are imperfect - remember to humble yourself before God, for it is only He who walks without stubbing His toe.

Edited October 18, 2006 by SoulGrind

[khalou]

I've written a lot to make my point here. I don't believe a God would want people to abandon thinking in their interactions with others, or to rely on a lesser standard of proof in physical debates than others might.

Khalou - You are correct. If God wanted us to be mindless trolls, He would not have given us a brain - every species of animal on this planet has a brain - most are capable of general emotions such as love and fear. Your pet dog or cat is a prime example of that - so imagine how much more special man is with his ability to think beyond animal instinct.

The Bible implores us to "test the spirits" - in other words... USE YOUR BRAIN.

This is why I (my personal opinion) have such a difficult time with the notion of "Blind Faith."

Yes - I agree, to some extent - we all need a little genuine "Blind Faith" to begin with. It's like fishing around your bedroom in the dark looking for your glasses. You have faith they are in the room, therefore you go looking. But it doesn't become clear until you turn the light on.

God directs us to test the spirits - turn the light on and see for ourselves.

"...Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

[1 John 4:1-3 - KJV]

This passage tells us to use our minds to verify whether a spirit is of God or not.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that requires some cognitive reasoning ability, ergo - the ability to go beyond "Blind Faith."

However, one only need to stub there toe to realize the error in their ways and realize they are imperfect - remember to humble yourself before God, for it is only He who walks without stubbing His toe.

Well then, according to you, any spirit that says that evolution is wrong is a false one. Any spirit that says that the Hebrew faith at any time included a fallen angel or an eternal place of punishment is a false one.

Kind of narrows it down some, don'tcha think?

k

[secondeve]

The Bible implores us to "test the spirits" - in other words... USE YOUR BRAIN.

This is why I (my personal opinion) have such a difficult time with the notion of "Blind Faith."

Yes - I agree, to some extent - we all need a little genuine "Blind Faith" to begin with. It's like fishing around your bedroom in the dark looking for your glasses. You have faith they are in the room, therefore you go looking. But it doesn't become clear until you turn the light on.

God directs us to test the spirits - turn the light on and see for ourselves.

"...Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

[1 John 4:1-3 - KJV]

This passage tells us to use our minds to verify whether a spirit is of God or not.

SoulGrind, I still have problems with the faith argument. I'm going to go out on a limb (meaning people may well disagree with me) and say that, at the most basic level, all faith is blind.

Let me back up my position.

The very definition of the word 'faith' centres on taking things on trust, despite a lack of evidence. Part of the dictionary.com definition is 'belief that is not based on proof.' You cannot see God, and so you have faith that the voice in your head is the Holy Spirit, that the things you percieve are his handiwork.

The concept of faith means that when someone presents you with evidence or ideas which may run contrary to your beliefs, your reaction is to either outright deny their verity, or to rearrange them in a wider context so that they pose no threat. It is here that we might distinguish 'blind' faith, as you mean it: blind faith would be the former. There would be no need to examine what you have been presented with or to try and make it fit with what you believe, because your beliefs are absolute. The latter reaction might be termed thinking faith: you accept that there may be merit to the claims, but they must be made to fit in with your existing belief in God. If that means you become an Old Earth creationist, so be it: the point being that at no point does faith permit the thought that your faith itself is questionable.

This is what I mean by all faith being blind. There is one area in which, as the term dictates, you will always believe your perception and beliefs to be infallable: that God exists. There are Christians who take a back-seat in these proceedings, simply waving away what does not suit: even if they cannot reconcile the contradiction, God, who is perfect, can. Others try and figure it out, using intuitive leaps between what the Bible says and what it doesn't say, but which nonetheless might have happened or be the case. But still, there is the blindness: the assumption of knowledge of truth.

I tend to think of it this way. Ultimately, nobody has faith in God. What you have faith in is your own ability to discern that God exists.

Edited October 18, 2006 by secondeve

[SoulGrind]

Well then, according to you, any spirit that says that evolution is wrong is a false one. Any spirit that says that the Hebrew faith at any time included a fallen angel or an eternal place of punishment is a false one.

Kind of narrows it down some, don'tcha think?

HUH?

You kind of lost me there.

I don't believe in the "theory" of evolution. And the Hebrew faith does include a "fallen angel" (Satan).

By saying we are to "test the spirits" means we are to apply a little thought.

But just because there are things we can figure out, there are many things that have yet to be revealed to us - therefore, we need to take it on faith that they will be revealed to us.

I hope I am explaining this ok.

[SoulGrind]

I tend to think of it this way. Ultimately, nobody has faith in God. What you have faith in is your own ability to discern that God exists.

You still have to have faith to take that first step. As you start to learn however, your faith becomes stronger, but so does your understanding, and therefore, you are no longer "blind".

I hope this explains it ok.

I may not be doing a very good job of explaining myself.

Edited October 18, 2006 by SoulGrind

[SoulGrind]

double post

Edited October 18, 2006 by SoulGrind

[Guest yod]

Well then, according to you, any spirit that says that evolution is wrong is a false one. Any spirit that says that the Hebrew faith at any time included a fallen angel or an eternal place of punishment is a false one.

Kind of narrows it down some, don'tcha think?

k

I have been traveling too much to keep up with this thread....sorry

But evolution as it is being taught is wrong. Insisting that an unproved theory is true would be false. There is still no proof that a species has ever evolved into another species.

Regarding fallen angels, Sheol, and other spiritual concepts...these are all progressive revelation. Like the concept of Messiah was not revealed in a single instance but over much time.....and who He is can also be progressive revelation to one who has read everything the Bible says about Him.

.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

If I may? I desire to expound on this testing of the spirits.,

Testing of the Spirits is nothing more than seeing if the spirit who is speaking whether they be through a man or the inner voice of the Spiritual realm. Is complying with the Word of God. If the spirit or voice being heard confesses that Jesus Christ, God, has come in the flesh and been manifest to mankind? That Spirit is the Spirit of God Himself, The Holy Spirit. If this spirit cannot confess such? We Christians are to dsiregard such a one as a false spirit. Thus the Prophet or person espousing such is to be disregarded as holding forth any Truth in light of the Word of God or our Faith.

We are not to receive any other Gospel save the One we first received. Whether it be from another man, Paul, or an Angel of Light.

There is a feel Good Gospel out there. However in Light of the Truth. It holds no weight because it denies the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ. Thus having no Saving Grace.

Why does it matter to put such spirits to the Test?

Simply because Faith comes by hearing and hearing cometh by the Word of God.

At one time we were all deaf and dead in the flesh and our trespasses.

However the Truth of Gods Word came and cut across our flesh. Exposing us to the Truth of Gods Word. This Truth brought with it a recognition that we are all dead in sins and trespasses against a Holy, Just, and Righteous God. The Truth set us Free when we came to Faith. Since now we could indeed hear. It brought with it the hearing by Faith. Faith in Gods very Word. Faith brought repentance an acknowledgement of our sins and a knowing of such brought with it a Godly sorrow which leads to repentance and life. We acknowledged the Word of God upon Faith which came by hearing from the Word of God. From God came our hearing and Faith as a gift, unmerited. Thus we repented and accepted Gods Outrageous Grace. Understanding who Jesus Christ was and is and accepting this Great Gift of Grace. We were Born again. Not of the will of man and our own ignorance. Rather of the Will of God and the Light of Truth.

This is why it is imperative to acknowledge from whence a spirit is coming and to test it in Light of the Truth of Gods Word.

Peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Khalou,

Who is Jesus Christ?

Peace,

Dave