Do you know where "Christmas" came from?

[The Journey]

Fish,

 That would be great if we lived in the theocracy under a mosaic economy with the hope of a promised land if we kept the covenant.  I live in a democracy under a grace economy and live with the fulfillment of the promises everyday.  Its great to sit in my favorite local coffee shop and over delicious latte with just a hint of irish creme debate with close friends.  Its another thing to sermonize that fellow believers are pagans for putting up a tree and living the excitement of the season with their children.  

- Steve

[Guest FishMan]

And who ordained that "excitement of the season"? Did Jesus? Did the apostles? No.

Inevitably, when one draws a parallel from the OT to use as an example of how Christians should live and view God today, he or she will be accused of being for legalism and a "mosaic economy".

To not see how the many OT examples point us toward a right relationship with God today is to flat out ignore scripture. It was good enough for Jesus to use in his teaching.

This age of grace should not be confused with being an age of "anything goes" in our worship of God. Even in an age of grace, the Eternal God says there are still plenty of ways to worship Him in vain (see Mark 7).

Enjoy your latte.  

[The Journey]

Fish,

 Now wait a minute you were using an injunction for Israel to stay away from idolatry and applying that to the celebration of Jesus birth during the month of December.  Using that same logic you can prohibit almost any part of secular society.   There was a specific reason that Israel was to be seperate in every way from the nations around them.  The mission was to bring the Christ to the Earth.  Its a tremedous stretch applying these to the Church.  Would you eat the meat that has offered as a sacrifice to a pagan god?  

- Steve

[Guest FishMan]

Not sure where you were going on this one, but no, Steve, I wouldn't eat meat that was knowingly offered in sacrifice to an idol.

Regarding your argument that almost any part of secular society could be included in my analogy, that's simply not true. It's the incorporation of worship of the true God in the middle of pagan festivities and tradition that I believe God has a problem with. To deny that Christmas is shrouded in paganism is simply to deny history, Steve. And God says to us today, just as He said to Israel: "Leave Me out of the pagan practices of the world! You are not of the world, church!"

Furthermore, I believe the OT has much to teach us in how we should live with one another and how the church should worship God. I see that you disagree with that and would urge you to begin a study on the topic, beginning with I Corinthians 10:6,11. See where that takes you, my friend.   :thumb:

[The Journey]

Well Fish in my ESV it takes me about a page back to chapter 8 where the Apostle states that an idol has no real existence and that eating food offered to idols does not change our relationship to God...as it would have under the law (v. 4,8).

[Guest FishMan]

So basically what you take out of the passage is it's ok to worship God with a hint of paganism because now we are under grace and God's utter contempt for any pagan practices or rituals doesn't really matter, because hey, we should just all love one another. Who gives a hoot about how God desires to be worshiped? Who gives a hoot that we celebrate a season full of pagan rituals and pretend that the holiday is biblically endorsed?

Sorry, I disagree.

Like someone on this post said earlier:

The world absolutely loves Christmas, but they hate Jesus. Using these facts alone tells me I want nothing to do with the Christmas holiday.

Am I happy my Savior was born and lived to die for me? You better believe it! But I don't need any pagan practices from centuries ago and carried on into today's godless society telling me how I should commemorate that most precious of gifts.

[The Journey]

Fish,

 What the passages clearly states is that a believer's relationship to God does not change if he participates in the buying and eating of temple idol meat.   Kinda makes this whole December thing look like small fries.

- Steve

[Guest FishMan]

Then we will have to agree to disagree then. Doesn't surprise me, though. Does it you?  :biggrin:

[The Journey]

No it doesn't...but we'll fight side by side on some other battle field.  Till then..

- Steve

[Guest FishMan]

Amen, brother.