Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[larryt]

I can't comprehend why people think they are robots. If all your decisions concerning morality are predestined, then you have no free will.

Example:

If predestinaiton is true, I am not really typing this message, its just something God programmed me to type. If this post is flawed, how can I control it? If it was predestined for me to write this, I had no say in the matter. I am just a robot and robots do exactly what they are programmed to do, and owners turn robots off when they are no longer amusing, and throw them in the trash, and buy better models, etc. If predestination is real, then I have no control over whether or not I wrote this message, it was "meant" to happen, and it contains exactly what God wanted it to contain since he's the one who set the ball rolling on day 1.

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All I have to do to refute predistination/fatalism/election is show one time in the Bible where somethign happened that God did not want to happen. I have already shown that it was not God's will that any should perish. However, we know from the Bible that many have already gone to hell. So there you have it. Predestination is refuted.

Logical analysis:

1) Election basicly says that everything concerning your salvation and morality, and indeed your very existence and daily decisions, is predetermined by God.

2) It is not God's will for any to perish.(2 peter. 3:9)

3) Some are already in Hell awaiting final judgment.(1 Peter 3:20)

4) By 2 and 3 above, we know that 1 is a false doctrine.

You think by your logic that you can understand the infinite. WRONG.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ro 8:29

[JIME]

By all means NO!!!

Read Jude 1-24

Greetings from Jude

1 This letter is from Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ and a brother of James. I am writing to all who are called to live in the love of God the Father and the care of Jesus Christ.

2 May you receive more and more of God's mercy, peace, and love.

The Danger of False Teachers

3 Dearly loved friends, I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the truth of the Good News. God gave this unchanging truth once for all time to his holy people.

4 I say this because some godless people have wormed their way in among you, saying that God's forgiveness allows us to live immoral lives. The fate of such people was determined long ago, for they have turned against our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

5 I must remind you

[larryt]

I can't comprehend why people think they are robots. If all your decisions concerning morality are predestined, then you have no free will.

Example:

If predestinaiton is true, I am not really typing this message, its just something God programmed me to type. If this post is flawed, how can I control it? If it was predestined for me to write this, I had no say in the matter. I am just a robot and robots do exactly what they are programmed to do, and owners turn robots off when they are no longer amusing, and throw them in the trash, and buy better models, etc. If predestination is real, then I have no control over whether or not I wrote this message, it was "meant" to happen, and it contains exactly what God wanted it to contain since he's the one who set the ball rolling on day 1.

-----------------------------------------

All I have to do to refute predistination/fatalism/election is show one time in the Bible where somethign happened that God did not want to happen. I have already shown that it was not God's will that any should perish. However, we know from the Bible that many have already gone to hell. So there you have it. Predestination is refuted.

Logical analysis:

1) Election basicly says that everything concerning your salvation and morality, and indeed your very existence and daily decisions, is predetermined by God.

2) It is not God's will for any to perish.(2 peter. 3:9)

3) Some are already in Hell awaiting final judgment.(1 Peter 3:20)

4) By 2 and 3 above, we know that 1 is a false doctrine.

You think by your logic that you can understand the infinite. WRONG.

I simply used the law of non-contradiction to show how predestination is a falsehood.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ro 8:29

[HAZARD]

Jime wrote;

"Even though we have accepted Christ into our life the sinful nature is still there. Under the control of the Holy Spirit can we acheive our goal of Eternal life by being transformed into the likeness of Christ. We must strive to maintain our salvation and fight the good fight of faith lest we succomb to the wiles of Satan and fall under his control.

.

Perfect answer mate. We must strive to maintain our salvation and fight to good fight lest we succomb to the wiles of Satan and fall under his control!

Thanks.

Haz.

[HAZARD]

So basicly you believe some people are going to hell for no good reason other than God made them evil to begin with and they had no chance.

They are just a piece of garbage God never intended to give any hope to, and consequently they will suffer forever for things they had no control over.

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Does that about sum it up?

________________________________________________________________________________

How I see it, reading between their lines, This is exactly what unconditional eternal security teaches. They believe Judas was created evil so that Scripture could be fulfilled, and that God gave him no chance to repent. That he was predestined to eternal hell before creation. Peter and the others denied Christ several times and they repented. Jesus even called Peter satan. But they repented. Did God predestin Judas not to repent and kill himself? Or did he brood over his sin and commit suicied? Judas was a saved man who "By transgression fell" and he brooded over his sin and chose to commit suicied.

God is not the author of sin or death. Satan is.

Edited October 30, 2006 by HAZARD

[larryt]

So basicly you believe some people are going to hell for no good reason other than God made them evil to begin with and they had no chance.

They are just a piece of garbage God never intended to give any hope to, and consequently they will suffer forever for things they had no control over.

---------------

Does that about sum it up?

Not really WSB,

There are many verses in the Word that I have no understanding as of yet. There are many other verses that I have only recently gained understanding in. To think I have a corner on all doctrine would be too presumptuous. To say the I am secure in my faith is to apply that only to myself, and not to anyone else. Jesus said that the path to destruction is wide and many go thereon, and the path to life is narrow and FEW travel thereon. You see the whole picture as some who are born again somehow loose that salvation. I see some that gladly receive the Word, BUT HAVE NO ROOT IN THEMSELVES, as never really born again by the Spirit of God.

By your statement above I take it that you believe that man has some worth. Jesus said that we are worth more than many sparrows but that is only a comparison between created things and to say that we are worth something to God is unfathonable. He is able to create anything He desires by just speaking it into existence. And who are we to question God when He says that He makes the wicked for the day of evil. That is what He says so I believe it.

LT

[larryt]

So basicly you believe some people are going to hell for no good reason other than God made them evil to begin with and they had no chance.

They are just a piece of garbage God never intended to give any hope to, and consequently they will suffer forever for things they had no control over.

---------------

Does that about sum it up?

________________________________________________________________________________

How I see it, reading between their lines, This is exactly what unconditional eternal security teaches. They believe Judas was created evil so that Scripture could be fulfilled, and that God gave him no chance to repent. That he was predestined to eternal hell before creation. Peter and the others denied Christ several times and they repented. Jesus even called Peter satan. But they repented. Did God predestin Judas not to repent and kill himself? Or did he brood over his sin and commit suicied? Judas was a saved man who "By transgression fell" and he brooded over his sin and chose to commit suicied.

God is not the author of sin or death. Satan is.

Hi HAZARD,

I light of your statements above would you mind addressing these verses.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

It seems to me that even at this early point that Jesus knew Judas was a devil.

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

[larryt]

Hi WSB

You are right that it is love and NOT worth that moves God to save man.

BELIEVETH, now that is an interesting word. It is the verb form of faith. Now how is it that one has faith and another doesn't? Did God give you the ability to believe or did you have it to begin with? A dead man cannot believe anything.

A very important question that I would like you to answer.

Did you contribute anything to your salvation?

LT

[Smalcald]

So basicly you believe some people are going to hell for no good reason other than God made them evil to begin with and they had no chance.

They are just a piece of garbage God never intended to give any hope to, and consequently they will suffer forever for things they had no control over.

---------------

Does that about sum it up?

No, not quite. What does scripture say is the reason God created Pharoe?

We do have a choice I agree with you, I also agree that we were chosen before the world was formed as scripture points out. Is God sitting around biting His nails wondering if we are going to repent and be born again? God exists in the past, the present and the future; He is already living with us in heaven. A hard concept no doubt and one we will never understand until after we are in heaven.

I wonder if we worry that if salvation is not a choice, that we won't get credit for our "good" choice? I believe that we do have the power the ability to reject God and push away the pleadings of the Holy Spirit. I do not believe we have the ability or power to have faith in Christ though that was given to us,

[Guest Primed Minister]

Man's earthly wisdom has been at odds with God since the fall.

1 Corinthians 1:18-31

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom.

But we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,

but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;

and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring the things that are,

that no flesh should glory in His presence.

But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--that, as it is written, He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."

That's it! That's all we have to glory in. Absolutely nothing in ourselves. Yes we have free will, but our free will would lead us to foolish earthly wisdom and unbelief. As related by Smalcald, some of it may seem paradoxical, and we may not understand it, but God is completely just in His method's of operation. Man is unjustly at odds with God. And thank God that in His pleasure, He chose us, the foolish.