Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[larryt]

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

God is not a liar. It's just that people refuse to believe in certain things of the bible that directly affect them.

The verse above is not talking about individuals but a congregation as a whole. And what is the lampstand/candlestick?

Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The lampstand/candlestick we see is the congregation. So the Lord is saying that He will remove that particular church. And this is exactly what happened to the church in Ephesus.

The "End" of the City of Ephesus

God sometimes seems to fulfill prophecies in ways we humans cannot tell until after the fact.

In the case of Ephesus where John wrote, "repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place", what happened was astounding.

Not only did Ephesus cease to be an important city, it ceased to be a port! The silt from a local river pouring out over time has actually removed Ephesus a distance of 4-5 miles (according to our Turkish tour guide Fahmi) from the ocean. As my wife and I personally verified, the view from the ancient harbor of Ephesus to the actual ocean is a long one.

Currently, Ephesus itself is now just a bunch of partially excavated ancient ruins with two large parking lots, some souvenir stands, and apparently one camel for tourists to take pictures of. It no longer has any prominence, other than biblical and historical.

Hebrews 10:28-31 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

This is speaking of Christians who have turned their backs on God.

In this passage from Hebrews there is no mention of loss of salvation but that God knows how to judge His people. In Ch. 12 we are exhorted not to despise the chastening of the Lord. That is what the writer is saying here also. The Corinthian that Paul turned over to Satan did not loose his salvation but was chastised by God through Satan that he should repent.

For people who believe in eternal security you are using scriptures that do back up the fact that no man can take away what is promised to us and that God is not slack in keeping his promises. When we receive eternal life it will be forever without repentance. What you are missing is that none of us has eternal life yet and if we choose not to repent of our sins or turn our backs on God then he will not give it to us. You have to put the scriptures together.

Those who believe in OSAS are using only half of the scriptures to support their belief and ignoring the others. That is why the contradiction.

If we come to the bible correctly we can see both sides of the coin that God is trying to tell us. On one hand we see that if we believe in our God with all of our heart and do his will that we will receive eternal life, but on the other hand if we turn our backs on God and go back into the world that we were saved from then we will not receive the promises.

God does not go back on his promises. I forfeit them when I choose sin over God.

I believe I could say the same about you, for I don't see you coming to the bible correctly as you put it.

If you believe with all your heart, then there won't be any turning of our backs on the Lord. If you turn your back on the Lord then you didn't believe with ALL your heart.

Ephesians 5:3-5 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

So, basically. if I am a Christian and have these sins in my life I will NOT have any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. To not believe this is not to believe in God.

Your conclusion based on the above verse in that you see it as a future condition. The verse says HATH ANY INHERITANCE, which is saying there NEVER WAS ANY. These people who continue in the flesh never were saved.

Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Ro 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

The difference is in what we do in this life. I don't think people either believe or consider that how we live our lives on this earth have a direct effect on the out come of our lives when Christ comes back.

2 Corinthians 5:9-10 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

On that day of judgment ALL men are going to be judged by what they did in this life. Not for rewards, but Christ is going to divide mankind into sheep and goats. The sheep will go into heaven and the goats will go into hell.

My works cannot add to the salvation provided by the Lord. They will give an indication of the salvation if present.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

So, basically, not everybody that believes in Christ will make it to heaven, but those who did the will of God will. It takes more than just faith and grace. We also have to do the will of God and this is to repent of our sins and keep ourselves clean.

If I as a Christian live my life just believing in God and do not do his will I will not make it into heaven because the verse says that those who will go to heaven are those who do his will.

Again the verse in Matthew is taken out of context. Read the next 2 verses.

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

We see here that the Lord tells us just who these people are that say Lord Lord. He says to them:

"I NEVER KNEW YOU." These people were never saved to begin with.

In conclusion I find many that PROFESS Christ but are really goats.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

LT

I have heard all of these justifications before and they still are not right. It astounds me how that people can justify certain parts of bible just so that they don't apply to them. ALL scripture is give for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness. You can't keep the good ones that support a laid back Christianity and justify the other ones away. That is why we have so many different churches and why so many of them are still filled with sin they think they don't have to repent of.

So how do you reconcile some of the things that Jesus says and not make Him a liar?

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father

[Thaddaeus]

Larryt,

So how do you reconcile some of the things that Jesus says and not make Him a liar?

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father

[canadasuzi]

well i would have to say from my own personnal experience NO! and you dont get many chances i think i may have one left...

but i guess we never really find out untill judgement day...

[larryt]

larryt,

Eternal/everlasting life is not primarily physical though it will culminate in physical eternal life.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

This is a past completed action. It is a done deal when we have eaten His Flesh and drank His blood.

Now the question is what does it mean to eat His flesh and drink His blood?

Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

I don't think it is talking about communion, but partaking in the life that He is providing for His people.

Thanks for answering the question I posed. Let me follow up with another. I want you to know ahead of time, that I am leading you with these questions.

If believing eventually does give us a physical eternal life, how do those who did not believe, recieve eternal life? This question is based on the fact that all the dead shall be raised on the last day to stand in judgment before Christ.

Thaddaeus,

To answer your question I need to know what you think eternal life is. I disagree with your premise that everyone has eternal life through Jesus Christ. I do not believe that those that do not believe receive eternal life. They are condemned already.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And condemned to eternal torment in the lake of fire, eternal death.

LT

[kari21]

As far as my understanding goes, the Bible refers to salvation as a "gift" from God....if He took it back, I guess it really wasn't a gift after all.

God is the author and finisher....He started this work in me, and He will see it through. If our salvation is dependent on what we do to keep it, then we are all in a lot of trouble.

[Thaddaeus]

Larryt,

To answer your question I need to know what you think eternal life is. I disagree with your premise that everyone has eternal life through Jesus Christ. I do not believe that those that do not believe receive eternal life. They are condemned already.

Not the way you are understanding it. Eternal life is simply being immortal, incorruptible, alive, physical, the human being is whole, body and soul. That is all it means and man recieves this through the Incarnation of Christ, who assumed man's human nature to raise it, to bring life to a mortal being, a dead being. Christ overcame death, the condemnation of Adam.

Thus faith does not grant eternal life. Christ does through His Incarnation, which is why all men, mankind will arise on the last day and stand in judgement. Faith, or our spiritual union is a spiritual existance which was impossible without eternal or immortal existance. If we were going to die, as the condemnation of Adam did to man, dust to dust, then there is not need for hell or heaven. There would be no human beings present or in existance.

Faith grants eternal life WITH GOD. The condemnation that you are speaking of is a spiritual condemnation, or LIFE APART FROM GOD. =eternal spiritual death. But man will never die. The only death which will be suffered by any man is spiritual death, a spiritual separation from God- hell.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And condemned to eternal torment in the lake of fire, eternal death.

spiritual death, eternal, but to man is alive in order to suffer that torment. He does exist as a human being.

[Thaddaeus]

kari19,

Hi Kari, I'm glad you came back to answer the question I posed to you quite a few days ago. Larryt was kind enough to answer also and I explained to Him why I made the question. But....

As far as my understanding goes, the Bible refers to salvation as a "gift" from God....if He took it back, I guess it really wasn't a gift after all.

he does not take it back. Man gives it up. But the salvation of mankind, man cannot give that up either. Man has nothing to do with it. It is solely God active.

However, it made union or a spiritual relationship possible. This relationship is all spiritual and not physical. Eternal life is a physical existance. Man was saved from death, a physical death, to be immortal. Without this saving, man could not have any uniion with God, since he would simply die and cease to exist, if he remained under Adam's condemnation.

God is the author and finisher....He started this work in me, and He will see it through. If our salvation is dependent on what we do to keep it, then we are all in a lot of trouble

This part is all about us keeping it. It is the salvation of our souls. The only death that is still a possibility, the spiritual death, those who do not believe, those who are not faithful, do not endure to the end. I might also note that the words you use as author and finisher in the Greek mean model and example. We are to emmulate Christ. Christ is not the problem is seeing it through, It is man that does not see it through, or has the ability not to follow through. We must remain with Christ and work with Him, then all things are possible. God does not save us in isolation or without our cooperation. If He wanted to force us, He could, then it would not be a matter that He simply desires that man be saved, that all men come to know Him. He created man free, and man will answer for a decision for or against Christ.

[exrockstar]

kari19,

Hi Kari, I'm glad you came back to answer the question I posed to you quite a few days ago. Larryt was kind enough to answer also and I explained to Him why I made the question. But....

As far as my understanding goes, the Bible refers to salvation as a "gift" from God....if He took it back, I guess it really wasn't a gift after all.

he does not take it back. Man gives it up. But the salvation of mankind, man cannot give that up either. Man has nothing to do with it. It is solely God active.

However, it made union or a spiritual relationship possible. This relationship is all spiritual and not physical. Eternal life is a physical existance. Man was saved from death, a physical death, to be immortal. Without this saving, man could not have any uniion with God, since he would simply die and cease to exist, if he remained under Adam's condemnation.

let me pose a question to you. If God is all power and all knowing.

why would He give man (lets take you for example) a gift that He knows you would give up in the future?

think about it. Is salvation like a hot potato that is bounced around back and forth.

Isnt salvation a little more serious?

Wouldnt God know that you would "give it up" anyways so why bother giving it to you the first time around?

[petanque]

The question asked is " DO YOU BELIEVE IN ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED?"

Hi my name is vernon and I've been a Christian believer for many years now, so I must be getting old, nevertheless I believe I have something to say on this topic.

Firstly, I feel that the above question is not the question that we should be asking. How can I possibly answer whether I will still like chocolate when I am 90 years old, it may just freeze my gums together. Therefore how can I possibly answer the question, will I be saved when I'm 90 or 100? It is impossible for me to know how steadfast and true my love for Jesus will be at that time. I am a human being and always prone to selfishness and weakness and my own way.

Now, when we compare the promises of God in Christ we have something totally different, His promises are from evelasting to everlasting. When the Bible says "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" we shouldn't think that nothing can possibly get in the way of your being saved ever after that moment. Although the words of the Bible here are for ever true, our believing is not always so. What I believe the Bible is saying is "Be believing on the Lord Jesus Christ" in other words as long as you continue to believe in Jesus the only Son of God, His promise that you are being saved remains true.

If we could only remember that all that is ours, our promises, our oaths, our abilities our strengths and weaknesses will all fail at some point because of the strength of Sin in us. Whereas all that is Gods in Christ will live and last into eternity, this includes all His promises.

Thanks for the opportunity of sharing with you. HE IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY AND FOREVER.

[EricH]

CHRIST died for all sins, past present and future sins! if you sin,repent and that sin is forgiven. keep it simple!

You are correct, but what people don't want to accept is that if we don't repent then we are not forgiven and will die in those sins.

So salvation is based on our work and Christs. He forgives, but only when we have stopped sinning?