Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Thaddaeus]

Massorite,

A very good modern day, real example of the principle of faith and being faithful to the end. I shall add that to my list. The best one I have used in the past is Joseph Stalin. Born to Orthodox parents, raised Othodox, was baptised, chrismated, served as an alter boy until he went off to college. There he met a man by the name of Marx and his life changed drastically. By all accounts of what we can know he probably did not repent. But who knows? We are not the judge.

[exrockstar]

exrockstar,

The man is saying "didnt i do this? didnt i do that? didnt i cast out demons in your name?"

The man never "lost his salvation," as a matter of fact, he felt his salvation was secure.

His works were secure, but he lost faith. Without works your faith is dead, just as much as your works without faith is dead. You must have both.

There are a lot of very moral people who are not christians. In fact, on the outward appearance many give evidence of doing better works than believers, but they lack faith. The two cannot be separated. They are really synonomous.

"DIDNT I cast out demons in YOUR NAME" definately is someone who is a "believer."

A believer of their OWN WORKS which is what your basing salvation.

sorry but true.

[Thaddaeus]

exrockstar,

"DIDNT I cast out demons in YOUR NAME" definately is someone who is a "believer."

A believer of their OWN WORKS which is what your basing salvation.

yes, but so did Judas. That is the whole point of this discourse. OSAS is a fallacy. You cannot fall from something unless you have been in or up in something from which to fall. Just because you were a sincere believer for 75% of your life, it is what or where you are at the end. You can continue to do good works, but completely lose faith. Being moral is not necessarily being Christian. A Christian is much more and that is where faith makes the difference. Read the Beatitudes, the 10 commandments of the NT. They go way beyond a moral goodness.

Just for arguments sake, can you show me by an reasonable logic that you could live the Christian life without doing anything? If so, on what grounds could you be judged, since we are going to be judged on our works, what WE HAVE DONE!

We are not saved by faith, but through faith. Do you know the difference?

[exrockstar]

exrockstar,

"DIDNT I cast out demons in YOUR NAME" definately is someone who is a "believer."

A believer of their OWN WORKS which is what your basing salvation.

yes, but so did Judas. That is the whole point of this discourse. OSAS is a fallacy. You cannot fall from something unless you have been in or up in something from which to fall. Just because you were a sincere believer for 75% of your life, it is what or where you are at the end. You can continue to do good works, but completely lose faith. Being moral is not necessarily being Christian. A Christian is much more and that is where faith makes the difference. Read the Beatitudes, the 10 commandments of the NT. They go way beyond a moral goodness.

Just for arguments sake, can you show me by an reasonable logic that you could live the Christian life without doing anything? If so, on what grounds could you be judged, since we are going to be judged on our works, what WE HAVE DONE!

We are not saved by faith, but through faith. Do you know the difference?

you think Judas was saved?

Judas was NEVER saved.

Christ referred to him as a comrade or friend.

Christ said Matt 26:"50And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him. "

are you trying to be Christs friend? Do you want Christ to refer to you as a friend?

we are not striving to be friends with Jesus but rather children.

Show me scripture where Christ addresses Judas as a son? im very curious.

Other than that you are saying Judas lost his salvation.

Christ used an evil that existed before the world to bring out a good.

Judas was doomed before he was even born. Christ did not give him a raw deal. The raw deal was there in the beginning

and God used it for His purpose.

you may want to re-examine what you spread because this is addressed as "fallen from grace (Gal 5:4)."

[larryt]

exrockstar,

The man is saying "didnt i do this? didnt i do that? didnt i cast out demons in your name?"

The man never "lost his salvation," as a matter of fact, he felt his salvation was secure.

His works were secure, but he lost faith. Without works your faith is dead, just as much as your works without faith is dead. You must have both.

There are a lot of very moral people who are not christians. In fact, on the outward appearance many give evidence of doing better works than believers, but they lack faith. The two cannot be separated. They are really synonomous.

Thaddaeus,

How can you say that this person "lost his faith?" Jesus said that He NEVER KNEW him. They were never born again, they were trusting in their works to save them and not in Jesus. They never had a relationship/knew Jesus Christ nor were they known by Him.

LT

[Thaddaeus]

exrockstar,

you think Judas was saved?

Judas was NEVER saved.

Christ referred to him as a comrade or friend.

Christ said Matt 26:"50And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him. "

are you trying to be Christs friend? Do you want Christ to refer to you as a friend?

we are not striving to be friends with Jesus but rather children.

Show me scripture where Christ addresses Judas as a son? im very curious.

Other than that you are saying Judas lost his salvation.

Christ used an evil that existed before the world to bring out a good.

Judas was doomed before he was even born. Christ did not give him a raw deal. The raw deal was there in the beginning

and God used it for His purpose.

you may want to re-examine what you spread because this is addressed as "fallen from grace (Gal 5:4)."

this is one of those "o so obvious ones" that clearly shows that Judas was even more than a believer, he was a disciple. One who is learning, being taught and who was he being taught by? This story is one of the most clearly anti OSAS stories in the Bible.

So, what are the facts.

Mark 3:13-15, 19, and Luke 9:1 repeats. All twelve apostles were given special powers, which included having the Holy Spirit. The Bible clearly puts Judas into this special group. Then in Luke 10:1 we have the commissioning of the 70. They also had the same special powers and if you will check vs 20 they had their names written in Heaven. Could this be the Book of Life?

Also, Jesus quite clearly stated that there are only two kinds of people. Sheep and goats. There is no gray area here. You are of one or the other. These represent the saved and the lost. We already know that Judas possessed the power to cast out demons. To do so, one must be of the Sheep, of Christ. For we also know that Satan cannot cast out Satan. Mark 3:23.

Further proof that Judas was indeed a disciple is shown to us in Acts 1:17 by Peter's words, "He was numbered among us". Mark 4:10-11 Judas understood the mysteries of the Kingdom. Clearly, Judas is numbered among those who knew and tasted of the kingdom and will be held to a higher standard than those who never knew the Kingdom, II Peter 2:21

Then, we know also that Judas was a traitor. Luke 6:16. Can one be a traitor, in this case from the Lord, without having been with or in the Lord? Judas committed treason against the Lord by siding with the enemy. He knew the truth yet he held it down and went against it. Judas was trusted with a unique ministry and he had a unique choice. He departed or fell from that ministry.

John 6:66 also tells us of other disciples that chose not to walk with Him no more. Disciples are not unsaved or heathens, they are specially called believers.

The warnings for apostasy are for Christians, not the unsaved. The unsaved have nothing from which to apostatize. The warning against apostasy is for those the OSAS proponents call, "saved". Many will apostasize and become traitors in the last days. I Tim 4:1.

What about Christ Himself. I'm sure you are familiar with the Temptations of Christ. Why would Satan even have attempted to tempt Christ? For surely, if anyone could be considered "saved" it must be Christ. Yet, Satan tempts Him as he does all of us. He tempts us because He knows the Truth about frail, sinful man. Christ also had the potential, the capability to sin. In other words, He could sin. If this were not true, then He could not have redeemed us. He would not have been like us in all respects, except that He did not succumb to sin. If there was no possibility of His sinning, He could not have saved us, and He would not have been a model for us.

[Thaddaeus]

larryt,

How can you say that this person "lost his faith?" Jesus said that He NEVER KNEW him. They were never born again, they were trusting in their works to save them and not in Jesus. They never had a relationship/knew Jesus Christ nor were they known by Him.

Why is it that some only look at either exceptions or in this case, where God (Jesus) was giving His divine insight, namely His foreknowledge that He knew, as He does all of us, who will eventually be faithful. (same with Judas) If one is not faithful, God knows from the beginning. However, we don't live in this world with the insight of God's foreknowledge. All of the Bible clearly states that man must make sure he remains in faith. If he loses faith, he is no longer IN Christ, and will not be saved. It is your job and obligation to test the spirits, to make sure you are being faithful. That you will not be one of those where were faithful for a time but fell from grace. The Church is full of people who think they are IN Christ and they are not. They might be later in life, as well as many who are not now IN Christ now and will believe, repent in the future. This goes right back to the branches being pruned and burned as well, and if one repents, they will be grafted back in. These are figurative metaphors to relate a meaning. It seems some people want to make them absolutes and very literal. Can you explain how a burned branch could be grafted back in, if you hold it as a absolute?

Edited August 8, 2007 by Thaddaeus

[TomPJr]

larryt,

How can you say that this person "lost his faith?" Jesus said that He NEVER KNEW him. They were never born again, they were trusting in their works to save them and not in Jesus. They never had a relationship/knew Jesus Christ nor were they known by Him.

Why is it that some only look at either exceptions or in this case, where God (Jesus) was giving His divine insight, namely His foreknowledge that He knew, as He does all of us, who will eventually be faithful. (same with Judas) If one is not faithful, God knows from the beginning. However, we don't live in this world with the insight of God's foreknowledge. All of the Bible clearly states that man must make sure he remains in faith. If he loses faith, he is no longer IN Christ, and will not be saved. It is your job and obligation to test the spirits, to make sure you are being faithful. That you will not be one of those where were faithful for a time but fell from grace. The Church is full of people who think they are IN Christ and they are not. They might be later in life, as well as many who are not now IN Christ now and will believe, repent in the future. This goes right back to the branches being pruned and burned as well, and if one repents, they will be grafted back in. These are figurative metaphors to relate a meaning. It seems some people want to make them absolutes and very literal. Can you explain how a burned branch could be grafted back in, if you hold it as a absolute?

Great posts, and great insight!

I've been reading and wanted to resond many times but you have been doing pretty good yourself.

I want to say something though...LarryT seems to think that once saved you can not commit sin... I would like to know if he believes he is saved, and if so...does he ever sin? (rhetorical question).

If you cannot lose your salvation in this life then there would be no need to warn and warn and warn believers to repent and keep on track. It seems pretty simple to me.

There is an exception to the rule though.... I do believe in OSAS when Jesus comes back. If you remember in prophesy it is foretold that there is a probationary period and at the end of it God will say let the wicked be wicked still and let the righteous be rightous still. Only then does OSAS truly apply. Untill then we must gaurd our Souls from the Devil who wishes to get us of the narrow road to heaven and lead us down the wide easy road to the lake of fire. You nor I know what tomorrow brings or if we are truly saved. Many people like to believe that they are saved and cannot fall away, and thus become extremely vulnerable to temptation, because they don't fear condemnation. The only thing that we know for sure is that God wants to save us. We have certain instructions to follow in order to gain salvation (ask forgiveness, repent).

Jesus gives us a free gift (pardon, salvation)

We must accept it (ask forgiveness, repent)

[Thaddaeus]

TomPJr,

thanks for the kind words.

You should comment anyway. It may be the same approach and understanding, but you will say it differently, as I know a few others on this thread as well. Not that numbers mean anything, but it does help others to know that they are not alone in their view as well as those who oppose might think that only one person does not see it their way.

[exrockstar]

exrockstar,

you think Judas was saved?

Judas was NEVER saved.

Christ referred to him as a comrade or friend.

Christ said Matt 26:"50And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him. "

are you trying to be Christs friend? Do you want Christ to refer to you as a friend?

we are not striving to be friends with Jesus but rather children.

Show me scripture where Christ addresses Judas as a son? im very curious.

Other than that you are saying Judas lost his salvation.

Christ used an evil that existed before the world to bring out a good.

Judas was doomed before he was even born. Christ did not give him a raw deal. The raw deal was there in the beginning

and God used it for His purpose.

you may want to re-examine what you spread because this is addressed as "fallen from grace (Gal 5:4)."

this is one of those "o so obvious ones" that clearly shows that Judas was even more than a believer, he was a disciple. One who is learning, being taught and who was he being taught by? This story is one of the most clearly anti OSAS stories in the Bible.

So, what are the facts.

Mark 3:13-15, 19, and Luke 9:1 repeats. All twelve apostles were given special powers, which included having the Holy Spirit. The Bible clearly puts Judas into this special group. Then in Luke 10:1 we have the commissioning of the 70. They also had the same special powers and if you will check vs 20 they had their names written in Heaven. Could this be the Book of Life?

Also, Jesus quite clearly stated that there are only two kinds of people. Sheep and goats. There is no gray area here. You are of one or the other. These represent the saved and the lost. We already know that Judas possessed the power to cast out demons. To do so, one must be of the Sheep, of Christ. For we also know that Satan cannot cast out Satan. Mark 3:23.

Further proof that Judas was indeed a disciple is shown to us in Acts 1:17 by Peter's words, "He was numbered among us". Mark 4:10-11 Judas understood the mysteries of the Kingdom. Clearly, Judas is numbered among those who knew and tasted of the kingdom and will be held to a higher standard than those who never knew the Kingdom, II Peter 2:21

Then, we know also that Judas was a traitor. Luke 6:16. Can one be a traitor, in this case from the Lord, without having been with or in the Lord? Judas committed treason against the Lord by siding with the enemy. He knew the truth yet he held it down and went against it. Judas was trusted with a unique ministry and he had a unique choice. He departed or fell from that ministry.

John 6:66 also tells us of other disciples that chose not to walk with Him no more. Disciples are not unsaved or heathens, they are specially called believers.

The warnings for apostasy are for Christians, not the unsaved. The unsaved have nothing from which to apostatize. The warning against apostasy is for those the OSAS proponents call, "saved". Many will apostasize and become traitors in the last days. I Tim 4:1.

What about Christ Himself. I'm sure you are familiar with the Temptations of Christ. Why would Satan even have attempted to tempt Christ? For surely, if anyone could be considered "saved" it must be Christ. Yet, Satan tempts Him as he does all of us. He tempts us because He knows the Truth about frail, sinful man. Christ also had the potential, the capability to sin. In other words, He could sin. If this were not true, then He could not have redeemed us. He would not have been like us in all respects, except that He did not succumb to sin. If there was no possibility of His sinning, He could not have saved us, and He would not have been a model for us.

you can't base having powers meant for those that were saved. those "powers" were sign for the Jews.

they had nothing to do with who had them. those powers benefited the people and not the person with them.

im saying this not as an expert but more as you have to provide scripture that "healing power means youre saved and no healing power means that youre not."

Besides it was all in God's will.

Paul in I Timothy 5:23 couldnt even heal Timothy's stomach problem.

it does not mean Paul wasnt saved nor he lost his salvation.

It wasn't in God's will.

so if you ask "Can one be a traitor, in this case from the Lord, without having been with or in the Lord?"

yep. in the eye of the beholder you are confident and proud that you are in the good side of the Lord.

While you tell everyone what you feel is the "good side" you can totally be off track but you'll never know.

Salvation was never based on you. At the end.....we'll just see about that.