Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[exrockstar]

For those who do not have the Spirit of God in them, they are not saved regardless of good or bad works. So the ultimate question becomes, "Do you have the Holy Spirit living in you?" Can you show me anywhere after the Spirit began indwelling believers where the Bible ever indicates the Holy Spirit leaves those believers? All I find is that He changes them.

i am a believer and supporter of OSAS.

Those that are against it cannot provide scripture you are requesting because their salvation relies on their perfromance

and not the Holy Spirit. As a matter of fact the Holy Spirit is not in the equation when one really stops to think abuot it.

It would be great if they can provide scripture showing that the Holy Spirit jumps in and put of people when they lose salvation.

[Thaddaeus]

larryt,

How depraved/impotent is man in regard to spiritual things?

I believe man is totally depraved. He cannot take any step toward God. It is as though you were to go to a grave yard and tell a corpse to try reach out and you would help him our of the grave.

Jesus said: You must be born again, or you cannot see the kingdom of God.

In order to see the kingdom one must first be born again. The natural man cannot see the kingdom of God. He must be born again first.

I will keep trying to point out some things to you that seems to be making you confused about what the Bible states and means.

Now, first, theologically, man did not lose the spiritual element of his existance which is the soul.

The fall, clouded, corrupted that human being but man lost nothing. It is all there.

If you read Rom 2 but especially the verses 18-26 Paul makes the argument that no man will have an excuse.

Man could always find God. But man has the propensity to make that attempt, but generally, because of the corruption he resorts to earthly gods, material gods. We know this from history because historians cannot find any civilization or group of people that did not have some from of a god, a higher being than they considered themselves. So man has done nothing but seek. Finding is the problem.

It is part of the divine Image of God in every man. Then the Bible gives us examples of some of these men who found favor with God because of their righteousness, Able, Enoch, Abraham, before God established Isreal as the forerunner for the Messiah.

Since Christ's death and resurrection this has all changed drastically. Man now has life restored to him, even though it will occur in the eschotan. God promised to pour out His Spirit upon all flesh. He calls all men to repentance. It is the work of the Holy Spirit in this world to convict men of sin. Every man will give an account on the Grace that was given to him. This is also what Rom 2 explains.

God, through Christ provided man every means, every opportunity to believe. All man have a measure of faith in God. It is part of the Image of God in every man.

If you doubt the NT explaining this, then read Isaiah and especially Ezekial with the graveyard story of the dry bones.

The "born again" to which you refer is the spiritual connection man decides to make with God upon exercising his faith, belief, accepting God, then repenting, being baptised into Christ. He now becomes a full fledged believer. It was his decision alone to accept and it will be his sole obligation to remain faithful to his promise of entering that covenant. God will not be the one to leave man, but man is ALWAYS the one that will initiate the departure of the Holy Spirit when man becomes lax, careless in his walk, his relationship with Christ. Sin will separate man from God. Unforgiven sin separates and only repentance will make reconciliation with God to renew or to continue that relationship (salvation of ones soul).

You bring in the natural man, but only a believer is not a natural man. All it means is that he will have ability to understand more deeply that which God has revealed. One does not need to be a believer before faith takes root and acceptance and repentance takes place. All of this preceeds the distinquishing marks of a non-natural man.

[Thaddaeus]

Rhonda Lou,

Based on Eph 5:3-6

The NLT puts these verses thes way: "For thosugh your hearts were once full of darkness, now you are full of light from the Lord, and your behavior should show it! For this light within you produces only what is good and right and true." Both versions are saying the same thing: the "light" in us, or the "fruit" is of the Spirit -- He is transforming us. By doing those sins mentioned above, we are showing that we do not have the Spirit of Christ in us. Romans 8:9 says,

And that is the very point that OSAS overlooks. The reality of the fact is that Christians do every single one of these sins. When we do them, without repentance, we are no LONGER IN CHRIST. Sin and Being IN Christ do not mix under any kind of circumstance. Repentance is the ONLY road to reconciliation and either being or remaining IN Christ. The other point Paul is emphasizing is that we should strive not to do these kinds of willful sins. It is these sins that we should strive to put away IF WE CLAIM TO BE A BELIEVER AND ARE IN CHRIST.

these warnings are but tripe if all a person needs do is believe. Because by your view, after this point man, the believer, is no longer in control. Why even mention this possibility and encouragement to persevere when it is not man. Shouldn't God be telling Himself to do this if He is the one doing this in and through man?

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. NOW IF ANY MAN HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE IS NONE OF HIS."

I take this to mean that if the Holy Spirit is in you, you are a Christian, and that Holy Spirit living in you will transform you. 2 Corinthians 3:18 SAYS,

Here again your explanation belies the purpose of even writing these words in the Bible. The reality is that the Holy Spirit is not the one DOING this. He works with man, He influences man's spirit, the same way the flesh influences man's Spirit. Both are warring against each other for your soul. But is it you, only you, that will determine to whom you will be a slave. You can willfully change your mind and direction any time you so decide. God created you with this ability for a purpose. A purpose He will hold to you. You will be judged on what you do, not God or the Holy Spirit. These are tests one can make of his own life. It is why we are supposed to test ourselves to make sure we are IN Christ. Others can assist you by observing your fruit.

You are correct that the Holy Spirit is the one doing the transforming, the renewing, the conforming to His Image, but the Holy Spirit ONLY does or continues to do, IF YOU PERMIT HIM TO DO SO. It is your decision, not God's.

To me, a Christian is one who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and that Holy Spirit does the transforming work "from glory to glory." It is not my doing. By confessing Jesus as Lord, I was promising to submit to the transformation of the Holy Spirit. If I didn't do that, then I do not have the Holy Spirit in me, and I'm not saved

Here also, what you say is absolutely correct. But the words in the Bible would be meaningless if they apply to the Holy Spirit. But they do not. They apply to YOU, and only YOU. The transforming is not your doing, but the fact that it is taking place is your doing. You say you were promising, and that is again absolutely correct, but MAN is the ONLY one who can break that promise. We do it every time we sin. That is why repentance is a daily event in the life of a believer.

Later in your post, you quoted Philippians 2:12 where it says to work out our own salvation. This is in connection with salctification salvation, but note that the very next verse says, "For it is GOD which worketh in you both to will and to do of HIS good pleasure." This means that we should work out our salvation "for" or "because" as Christians, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, it is GOD who gives us the will (desire to obey) and the "do" (power to obey). Without Him doing that through us, it would not happen. And with Him doing that in us, we will never need to be concerned with salvation because we trust Him to keep those of us He's saved by living through us.

You have completely misunderstood this text. The Holy Spirit is working in you (for you to do his) will. This is the influencial work of the Holy Spirit in your life. It is not the Holy Spirit doing your will so that your will aligns with God's will. He works to move YOU to do His will to offset the other side of the battle, the flesh is moving you to do the will of the flesh at the same time. Which way will you go. The decision is all yours. You are not a passive tool. You are not a hammer and God is swinging it. It is rather it is you doing the hammering with His help in strength.

Can you show me anywhere after the Spirit began indwelling believers where the Bible ever indicates the Holy Spirit leaves those believers?

We have posted so man texts regarding this it seems redundant. But the key to understanding what you are asking is that we as believers are being saved THROUGH FAITH. Having faith is equal to having the Holy Spirit. Thus any verse that speaks of losing faith, is also losing the Holy Spirit, thus that person has become an unbeliever. Now, I can post another 50 more other than those I have already posted attesting to this fact, including those you Cardcaptor also used.

I might make this note as well, since some other posters alluded to this phenonomon of interpretation. Many will say that once justified, which to some also means, been saved, does not change or end, that sanctification has nothing to do with being justified.

Since we are justified by faith, our very own faith, then that same faith is used by which we are sanctified. We are saved through faith. Justification is not salvation, it is an entrance into the Kingdom. Once there we need to be conformed and all the other things to increase our faith, to make our communion with God better, greater, etc. But if we lose that faith, we also are no longer justified. Justified means to be right with God. If we sin, and we do it willingly without repentance, we are no longer right with God, thus not justified and sanctification ends.

Hope that help you understand the anti-OSAS view.

[Thaddaeus]

Exrockstar,

Those that are against it cannot provide scripture you are requesting because their salvation relies on their perfromance and not the Holy Spirit.

There have been many texts but you fail to understand what they mean even with the explanations. They won't fit if you try to align them with your view. You still show a total misunderstanding between what Christ did on the Cross and for whom, verses the role of Man being created in God's Image. Once you understand the difference then you might understand what salvation is all about.

As a matter of fact the Holy Spirit is not in the equation when one really stops to think abuot it.

Can you back this up with any quotes for those who do not support OSAS?

It would be great if they can provide scripture showing that the Holy Spirit jumps in and put of people when they lose salvation.

Again a total misunderstanding of what the relationship is all about. Cardcaptor had a very good explanation of this concept of the "Holy Spirit jumping in and out" thing. It just shows you have not understood the explanations of the anti-OSAS proponents. When one misparaphrases the view, then one does not understand. Edited August 20, 2007 by Thaddaeus

[larryt]

Without a discussion of the basis of salvation, the reason for it and how great a salvation, those that believe they can loose their salvation cannot understand how you cannot loose that which they have no power to gain in the first place.

So I ask this Question.

How depraved/impotent is man in regard to spiritual things?

I believe man is totally depraved. He cannot take any step toward God. It is as though you were to go to a grave yard and tell a corpse to try reach out and you would help him our of the grave.

Jesus said: You must be born again, or you cannot see the kingdom of God.

In order to see the kingdom one must first be born again. The natural man cannot see the kingdom of God. He must be born again first.

LT

We do have power over it. All we have to do is choose not to be born again. When Christ died on the cross for mankind it was left up to mankind to come to Christ for salvation. Even though everything is free it is still up to man to make the effort to partake of it.

Hi card,

I would like to keep this simple and to the point. I would like to address one particular issue without going on to the others. The issue is to what degree is man depraved? Here are several scriptures that I believe support my position of the total depravity of men. There are many other but here are a few.

Ro 5:6

[larryt]

larryt,

How depraved/impotent is man in regard to spiritual things?

I believe man is totally depraved. He cannot take any step toward God. It is as though you were to go to a grave yard and tell a corpse to try reach out and you would help him our of the grave.

Jesus said: You must be born again, or you cannot see the kingdom of God.

In order to see the kingdom one must first be born again. The natural man cannot see the kingdom of God. He must be born again first.

I will keep trying to point out some things to you that seems to be making you confused about what the Bible states and means.

Let me put one thing strait, I am not confused about what the Bible states and means. I KNOW whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. And understand this, I believe that you are confused and do not understand what the bible is talking about.

Now, first, theologically, man did not lose the spiritual element of his existance which is the soul.

Man is not dipartite, he is tripartite. Body, soul, & spirit. The spiritual element is the spirit of man which he did not loose but which DIED, WAS SEPARATED FROM God.

The fall, clouded, corrupted that human being but man lost nothing. It is all there.

If you read Rom 2 but especially the verses 18-26 Paul makes the argument that no man will have an excuse.

Absolutely not. Man lost everything!!!!! He was totally corrupted by the fall. Totally wicked.

Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

Ps 53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were [any] that did understand, that did seek God.

Ps 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.

Man could always find God.

Chapter and verse pleeeeeease!!!!!!!

But man has the propensity to make that attempt, but generally, because of the corruption he resorts to earthly gods, material gods. We know this from history because historians cannot find any civilization or group of people that did not have some from of a god, a higher being than they considered themselves. So man has done nothing but seek. Finding is the problem.

Man cannot even make the attempt.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.

It is part of the divine Image of God in every man.

Not at all.

Then the Bible gives us examples of some of these men who found favor with God because of their righteousness, Able, Enoch, Abraham, before God established Isreal as the forerunner for the Messiah.

Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Job 15:14 What [is] man, that he should be clean? and [he which is] born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Job 15:16 How much more abominable and filthy [is] man, which drinketh iniquity like water?

They were only righteous because they found their righteousness in Christ.

Since Christ's death and resurrection this has all changed drastically. Man now has life restored to him, even though it will occur in the eschotan. God promised to pour out His Spirit upon all flesh. He calls all men to repentance. It is the work of the Holy Spirit in this world to convict men of sin. Every man will give an account on the Grace that was given to him. This is also what Rom 2 explains.

God, through Christ provided man every means, every opportunity to believe. All man have a measure of faith in God. It is part of the Image of God in every man.

If you doubt the NT explaining this, then read Isaiah and especially Ezekial with the graveyard story of the dry bones.

The "born again" to which you refer is the spiritual connection man decides to make with God upon exercising his faith, belief, accepting God, then repenting, being baptised into Christ. He now becomes a full fledged believer. It was his decision alone to accept and it will be his sole obligation to remain faithful to his promise of entering that covenant. God will not be the one to leave man, but man is ALWAYS the one that will initiate the departure of the Holy Spirit when man becomes lax, careless in his walk, his relationship with Christ. Sin will separate man from God. Unforgiven sin separates and only repentance will make reconciliation with God to renew or to continue that relationship (salvation of ones soul).

You bring in the natural man, but only a believer is not a natural man. All it means is that he will have ability to understand more deeply that which God has revealed. One does not need to be a believer before faith takes root and acceptance and repentance takes place. All of this preceeds the distinquishing marks of a non-natural man.

But you can find no scriptural backing for your statements. It is just the wisdom of this world which is foolishness with God.

And let's not accuse me of proof texting, show your scriptural support or please refrain from answering.

LT

[Thaddaeus]

larryt,

Let me put one thing strait, I am not confused about what the Bible states and means. I KNOW whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. And understand this, I believe that you are confused and do not understand what the bible is talking about.

I didn't say you were confused about what you believe. However, even after reading this post, you have given no indication that your view has any Biblical credence whatsoever based on the historical continuation of that faith from the beginning.

OSAS is a very modern theory. It has it roots in the beginning of the Reformation. But the sad think about it, it has not yet arrived at any kind of consensus view of those who use the same method at interpretation. That should tell you something. What you say today, will be gone tomorrow with several newer, better versions of what it might mean.

Absolutely not. Man lost everything!!!!! He was totally corrupted by the fall. Totally wicked.

No, he was corrupted. Totally is not Biblical. It would mean man has nothing, no body, no soul or spirit. They are all there. But they are not used properly. Sin separates man from God and that is the proclivity of man. It does not make him totally depraved. It does make him unrighteous, which is not the same thing as you repeatedly quoted. You will find nothing in Scripture that supports a theory known as Totaly Depravity. If you want to claim man is unrighteous, then you would be on solid Biblical ground which you have pointed out in your texts.

Being wicked is not totally depraved. Depraved possibly, but not totally.

My statement: Man could always find God.

Your response.

Chapter and verse pleeeeeease!!!!!!!

Kind of silly to repost the text. I gave you a whole chapter, but I would presume you did not check it out. Would it make any difference this time around. Rom 1-2.

Try Gen 4:7. Gen 4:26, Gen 5:21-24, Gen 6:8, and one could go on. All the OT saints believed.

Man cannot even make the attempt.

Which is still an unproven assertion on your part. No texts that says man can do nothing. Have you read the texts above? You even obviously disagree with every historian I know of. They all, without exception, make the claim that all societies have some form of religion, a god of some kind. So, can you find a scriptural text that will refute historical witness and reality. After all the Bible is history as well.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Father teaches all men, though not all learn. The Father calls all men to repentance, though not all repent. Do you know any man who is not drawn? Did you read Rom 2:14-19 yet. Will any man have an excuse?

My comment: It is part of the divine Image of God in every man.

your response:

Not at all.

An assertion still. Find any text in the Bible or even an historical premise outside of the Bible that man does not seek. That man is totally incapable of doing anything?

Man can find God as the texts I listed because man was created in His Image and God calls all men, no exceptions, Rom 2, and man does all this while living in a fallen state, a fallen world, and the devil seeking to devour. He specifically seeks believers, since he has not yet won them over or more accurately, he lost them once, and desires them back in his fold and continually bombards the believer. God has given man everything he needs and then some, but it is man who decides, not God, of who will believe. God created man specifically with that attribute because God wanted a creature who freely chose to be in communion with Him. He did not create man as a tree or even and animal, but in His Image. You make man more of the former two than the latter.

Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

But where does it say, totally depraved. A believer can become unrighteous as well. That is what we need to guard against. Giving in to the temptations that assult us every day. God does not make your decisions of what you will do, only you do, and you will be held accountable for them, not God.

Job 15:14 What [is] man, that he should be clean? and [he which is] born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

This also does not show total depravity. What this aligns with is the fall. Adam's condemnation of death to every man through birth. Being dead in sins and treaspasses. Christ redeemed mankind from this predicament, gave life to man, freed mankind from the bondage to death and sin. Where is total depravity here?

They were only righteous because they found their righteousness in Christ.

yes, as we can speak of God before Christ came. You do believe that they are one and the Same. You do believe in the Trinity? Thought I better ask. I may be making an unmerited assumption.

But you can find no scriptural backing for your statements. It is just the wisdom of this world which is foolishness with God.

I gave you mine, but you have failed to show any text supporting total depravity. You may have chosen a term and defined it by your intepretation, but you will not find this understanding from the beginning. The Gospel has been preserved by the Holy Spirit, It has a historical witness which was recorded partially for you in the NT and has been believed and practiced the same since the Apostles. That cannot be of man, but only of God. Can you show the same for your view. Can you find a first century saint who believed as you do? How about a second century saint?

You cannot even make one in the last 100 years, or even 50 years that will not have possibly 10 -20 different views as to what it might mean.

And let's not accuse me of proof texting, show your scriptural support or please refrain from answering.

It seems I have but where are your texts? I see no historical use of the term "total depravity" as ever having any universal gospel understanding.

[Rhonda Lou]

Thaddeus,

There has been far too much quoted, to quote it all here. First of all, I appreciate your e-mail to me yesterday, in which you shared your views. Many on here have boiled this down to "You show me your scripture, and I'll show you mine". The truth is that it is ALL in Scriptures, and so the difficulty between us lies in interpretation. I will and do concede that you are interpreting the Scripture to the best of your ability, and I am interpreting Scripture to the best of my ability -- and we are both attempting to be accurate in the interpretation. You have explained your position extremely well, and I do appreciate that. I believe our fundamental difference in interpretation lies here, quoting from you:

Because by your view, after this point man, the believer, is no longer in control. Why even mention this possibility and encouragement to persevere when it is not man. Shouldn't God be telling Himself to do this if He is the one doing this in and through man? (QUOTE from me: Can you show me anywhere after the Spirit began indwelling believers where the Bible ever indicates the Holy Spirit leaves those believers?) (Response from you): We have posted so man texts regarding this it seems redundant. But the key to understanding what you are asking is that we as believers are being saved THROUGH FAITH. Having faith is equal to having the Holy Spirit. Thus any verse that speaks of losing faith, is also losing the Holy Spirit, thus that person has become an unbeliever. Now, I can post another 50 more other than those I have already posted attesting to this fact, including those you Cardcaptor also used.

OK, if I am understanding you correctly, what you mean is that God transforms believers that that if a believer decides against that transformation, committing the sins listed in Ephesians 3:3-6), then the Holy Spirit leaves you until you repent, ask forgiveness, and come back into the fold, at which time, the Holy Spirit once again comes into you until the next time you do something wrong. You believe that when I say "just believe that the Spirit works to transform you" means that I do nothing except say that I believe, and go on as before, saying, "Oh, look, the Holy Spirit did this thing and that thing." I do not wish to be sarcastic here, I'm just stating what I believe you are saying, and my understanding of what you believe I'm saying. This, to me, is the basic heart of the issure.

I did not wish to answer last night when I read this because I wanted to pray about it, and try to let God speak through me. It is difficult to come up with words which haven't been said 1,000 times by both camps in this thread of 175 plus pages. Let me try to explain my side in a new, fresh way (hopefully) through the Holy Spirit in me.

This morning, I was looking at my "book marker" in my own personal study of 2 Corinthians 5:18-21, and discovered it was John MacArthur's view of genuine salvation. I would like to give him the credit for this, and I'll explain afterwards how it has changed me life. It is too long to quote full verses, so I will just cite them for you to look up at your convenience. He calls it "The Character of Genuine Saving Faith."

I. EVIDENCES THAT NEIGHTER PROVE NOR DISPROVE ONE'S FAITH

A. Visible Morality: Matthew 19:16-21, 23-27

B. Intellectual Knowledge: Romans 1:21; 2:17ff.

C. Religious Involvement: Matthew 25:1-10

D. Active Ministry: Matthew 7:21-24

E. Conviction of Sin: Acts 24:25

F. Assurance: Matthew 23

G. Time of Decision: Luke 8:13-14

II. THE FRUIT/PROOFS OF AUTHENTIC/TRUE CHRISTIANITY

A. Love for God: Psalm 42:1 ff; 73:25; Luke 10:27; Romans 8:7

B. Repentance from Sin: Psalm 32:5, Proverbs 28:13; Romans 7:14 ff; 2 Corinthians 7:10; 1 John 1:8-10

C. Genuine Hospitality: Psalm 51:17; Matthew 5:1-12; James 4:6, 9 ff

D. Devotion to God's Glory: Psalm 105:3; 115:1; Isaiah 43:7; 48:10 ff; Jeremiah 9:23-24; 1 Corinthians 10:31

E. Continual Prayer: Luke 18:1; Ephesians 6:18 ff; Philippians 4:6 ff; 1 Timothy 2:1-4; James 5:16-18

F. Selfless Love: 1 John 2:9 ff; 3:14, 4:7 ff

G. Separation from the World: 1 Corinthians 2:12 James 4:4 ff; 1 John 2:15-17; 5:5

H. Spiritual Growth: Luke 8:15; John 15:1-6; Ephesians 4:12-16

I. Obedient Living: Matthew 7:21; John 15:1-4 ff; Romans 16:26; 1 Peter 1:2, 22; 1 John 2:3-5

If List I is true of a person and List II is false, there is cause to question the reliability of one's profession of faith. Yet if List II is true, then the top list will be also.

John MacArthur's definition of salvation. Now what caught me as I looked at those verses is that the first list is about "doing" and the second list is about "being". God looks at the heart -- the motives inside. Everything we say and do begins in our hearts. God looks at motivation. Nothing brings this out better than the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7). If we are angry with somebody, we've committed murder. If we lust, we've committed adultery, and so on. The idea is that God looks at the heart. I can't do anything about my heart, only God can.

I was raised in a church which believed, quite correctly, that Jesus died for my sins, and that He rose again, and that if I believed this I would be saved, and obedient to prove that I loved God. I tried for 45 years to be obedient to prove I loved God. I tried in my flesh. I was like the people in Matthew 7: who cast out demons, and did other good works, but those the Lord never knew. Why not? They did good works. But their heart was not right. They did those works to receive men's praise, and as an insurance policy to get into heaven. They did not do so out of love for God and a wish to bring Him glory. Thy tried to do by "self" or "flesh" what only God could do. I never loved God -- the whole time I wnet to church regularly, and tried to prove I loved God -- I hated and feared Him. I was SO afraid of ending up in hell, and so hated God's demands on me (and so devoid of the ability to keep the law on my own), that I resented Him for demanding that of me. How could I ever keep that!! Even if I did the right thing (turning the other cheek), I was still angry, and the Bible said that such anger was the same as murder. No matter HOW HARD I tried, I came up short!! I believed, as you do, that if we live by the Sprit (by choice), then we were "good", had "good fruit" and were OK, but it was all outward. None of it touched my heart. After 47 years, I finally come to the end of myself, and said, "God, I can't do it. I've tried, and I've tried, and I've tried. It is just IMPOSSIBLE!!" Nothing touches my heart. I want to love you. I want to love others. If you are in there anywhere, I want to know you. I believe you died and rose for me -- the Bible says it and I believe it. But you would not know that if you looked at my heart. It is filthy, dirty, and I can't bear it anymore. Make this REAL in my life. Make me a person of intengrity -- where words, deeds, and heart all match and are all one."

God showed me that Jesus became sin for me that I might "become" the righteousness of God. When I focus on keeping the law, doing those things which are right, I am unable to do it. It depends too much on me. Rather than focusing on the outward things, as I did for over 45 years, I focus on the intter things, on the "being" -- on loving God. On living for HIS glory. On asking Him to change my heart. That is what I "do". You mentioned that "believing" doesn't "cut it." Others said that OSAS leaves us open to sinning because we do not need to "worry" about salvation if we believe that we are always saved regardless of what we do.

I'm not sure how to get this across: but I believe that rather than focusing on "don't fornicate, lie, murder..." (the outward rules) loses the focus that God looks at the heart and motivations of the heart. I don't sit back and do nothing: I look at ways to love God more, and ways to bring Him glory. Jesus said that he who saves his life loses it. He says that we need to abide in Him. Apart rom Him, we can do nothing. Those who are loving God, trying to magnify God's name, and bringing Him the glory are saved, the Holy Spirit lives in them and is transforming them -- and they are not committing the acts of Ephesians 5:3-6. Not because they believe salvation is a free ride so they can do whatever they want -- but because, in their heart, they truly care about God, what He wants, and what He is trying to do for them. Such a person is saved, and will never lose that salvation because His prize is God Himself. Without that love, no amount of works good or bad saves, and the person does not even have the Holy Spirit to "lose".

I believe the passages quoted for the fruit of the Spirit (Ephesians 5:3-6 being an example) are a test of whether or not we are Christian -- but not exactly in the way you see it. I believe that unbelievers look at us, and if we are doing these sins, they then know we are not Christians. No true Christian would be doing these sins, and they know that. If we SAY we are Christians, and are doing these sins, then we need to examine ourselves to see if we are truly "in Christ". You and I both agree on that. But, I think the difference there is that you believe we can be "in Christ" then not "in Christ" and then "in Christ" again after repentance. I believe this is saying that if we commit these sins, we were never "in Christ" to begin with because anybody "in Christ" would NEVER do these things. That being "in Christ" is to love and treasure Christ above all, to want to do His will, to die to self, to put His agenda first. The Law takes care of itself, so long as the love is there.

Yes, I agree that I am still in the flesh,, meaning, that though my Spirit loves God with everything in me, I am contained in flesh. That's one of the biggest reasons I look forward to heaven -- this stupid FLESH will be gone, and I'll be of one mind continually!! When the flesh wins out, yes, I ask forgivenenss and repent -- and repentance is HUGE with me -- but that repentance comes from the life of a believer who grieves when sinning -- not from one who has lost salvation and is looking for a way to get it back. God truly HAS changed my heart. Nor do I go out seeking sin now that I know that no matter what I do, I'll be saved. That is to love sin. A Christian does not LOVE sin -- a Christian HATES sin with every fiber of his being.

That, in a nutshell, is what I believe. The goal of a Christian is not to keep the Law -- I believe God does that through a true Christian. The goal of a Christian is to love God more and more and more, to die to self daily -- hourly -- minutely -- and to submit to God's agenda and magnify His name because the goal of a Christian is to bring all honor and glory to God by everything He does and says. Only Christ living in me can make me "like Christ" and I leave that part to Him. I simply want others to see HIM and not me. That is my goal in this life. And, once that becomes the goal, there is no way it can be lost. God would never allow that to happen because glory in Him would be lost if He did. So, that's the OSAS side of things.

[exrockstar]

Exrockstar,

Those that are against it cannot provide scripture you are requesting because their salvation relies on their perfromance and not the Holy Spirit.

There have been many texts but you fail to understand what they mean even with the explanations. They won't fit if you try to align them with your view. You still show a total misunderstanding between what Christ did on the Cross and for whom, verses the role of Man being created in God's Image. Once you understand the difference then you might understand what salvation is all about.

As a matter of fact the Holy Spirit is not in the equation when one really stops to think abuot it.

Can you back this up with any quotes for those who do not support OSAS?

It would be great if they can provide scripture showing that the Holy Spirit jumps in and put of people when they lose salvation.

Again a total misunderstanding of what the relationship is all about. Cardcaptor had a very good explanation of this concept of the "Holy Spirit jumping in and out" thing. It just shows you have not understood the explanations of the anti-OSAS proponents. When one misparaphrases the view, then one does not understand.

what post number is his explanation?

[exrockstar]

its actually same spirit but "regenerated" Titus 3:5

Ok.

and repenting of sins is called "fellowship."

if your going to explain things then at least provide scripture because you will be corrected.

I provide many, many scriptures for what I believe and you should live by your own advice as you will never find a scripture that calls repentance "fellowship".

im probably not going to explain fellowship with Jesus Christ to you.

If you dont get it by now then its probably doesnt fall in your general belief system.