Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Guest Primed Minister]

Dear Thaddaeus and WhSoBlind.

Thank you for your responses. The Scriptures do not lie and it pleases me that there still are some men who actually believe what they say and not what men think they say. Also, when reading responses, one can discerne who actually has the Holy Spirit working in them and who thinks they have Him working in themselves, by their attitude alone if nothing else.

For those who believe they have unconditional eternal security, please be aware of these facts. Under the guise of honouring the finished work of Christ on the cross, some teachers lead many to believe that once a person is in grace, he will always be in grace, regardless of how much he sins thereafter. Such teachings masquerade under various names, and are believed by a great many people because they seem plausable; and furthermore they are sometimes championed by Bible scholars of national reputation. Regrettably, for too many people the teaching of eternal security becomes eternal security, for they laps into a sinning-saint religion which will truly bring them dissapointments on Judgment Day. Many people accept the arguments because of the ignorance of the full scope of Scriptures on the subject, while there are no doubt others who, being fully blind will praise it because they want an excuse to sin.

First off, in terms of Bible teachers, I personally doubt that anyone here hasn't used the teachings of teachers who strike a cord with their personal belief. Taking teachings of what someone else teaches when they're stumped on a scriptural issue, and then stating it as fact in a debate. Keep in mind that a Jehovah Witness can come on this board, and get involved on a given debate. If I recall correctly from a conversation with one awhile back, they have a comeback for any scripture from our bible.

Secondly, it works both ways as far as pinning the problems that occur with believers who follow the various teachings. I would venture to say there are people that use the conditional security teaching in a very unbalanced fashion. By it's over emphasis, suspicion can tend to occur about who is a genuine brother or sister. While it is true we need to be wary of false teachers, and wolves in sheep's clothing, a very unhealthy attitude towards brothers and sisters in general becomes a factor. And to be quite frank, comments like who has the Holy Spirit working in them and who doesn't, tends to shed shades of similarities to this very thought pattern. This is not the Apostle Paul's balanced approach at all in my opinion of what I see in scripture. He stated some were immature, some in danger of dying early, some in danger of severe chastisement, etc. Only in some extreme specific situations did he question the authenticity of one being a genuine believer. More emphasis can be placed on making sure someone has a self-satisfactory fear of salvation loss, than praying that God Himself who is more able to keep someone from sinning will deal with them. One should also consider that if you're not struggling with some sort of addiction that causes you to stumble (like drugs for instance), it's only by the shear grace of God you're not walking in those shoes at this very moment. If you think it's by your own powerful might you might want to think again.

[HAZARD]

Dear Thaddaeus and WhSoBlind.

Thank you for your responses. The Scriptures do not lie and it pleases me that there still are some men who actually believe what they say and not what men think they say. Also, when reading responses, one can discerne who actually has the Holy Spirit working in them and who thinks they have Him working in themselves, by their attitude alone if nothing else.

For those who believe they have unconditional eternal security, please be aware of these facts. Under the guise of honouring the finished work of Christ on the cross, some teachers lead many to believe that once a person is in grace, he will always be in grace, regardless of how much he sins thereafter. Such teachings masquerade under various names, and are believed by a great many people because they seem plausable; and furthermore they are sometimes championed by Bible scholars of national reputation. Regrettably, for too many people the teaching of eternal security becomes eternal security, for they laps into a sinning-saint religion which will truly bring them dissapointments on Judgment Day. Many people accept the arguments because of the ignorance of the full scope of Scriptures on the subject, while there are no doubt others who, being fully blind will praise it because they want an excuse to sin.

First off, in terms of Bible teachers, I personally doubt that anyone here hasn't used the teachings of teachers who strike a cord with their personal belief. Taking teachings of what someone else teaches when they're stumped on a scriptural issue, and then stating it as fact in a debate. Keep in mind that a Jehovah Witness can come on this board, and get involved on a given debate. If I recall correctly from a conversation with one awhile back, they have a comeback for any scripture from our bible.

Secondly, it works both ways as far as pinning the problems that occur with believers who follow the various teachings. I would venture to say there are people that use the conditional security teaching in a very unbalanced fashion. By it's over emphasis, suspicion can tend to occur about who is a genuine brother or sister. While it is true we need to be wary of false teachers, and wolves in sheep's clothing, a very unhealthy attitude towards brothers and sisters in general becomes a factor. And to be quite frank, comments like who has the Holy Spirit working in them and who doesn't, tends to shed shades of similarities to this very thought pattern. This is not the Apostle Paul's balanced approach at all in my opinion of what I see in scripture. He stated some were immature, some in danger of dying early, some in danger of severe chastisement, etc. Only in some extreme specific situations did he question the authenticity of one being a genuine believer. More emphasis can be placed on making sure someone has a self-satisfactory fear of salvation loss, than praying that God Himself who is more able to keep someone from sinning will deal with them. One should also consider that if you're not struggling with some sort of addiction that causes you to stumble (like drugs for instance), it's only by the shear grace of God you're not walking in those shoes at this very moment. If you think it's by your own powerful might you might want to think again.

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Dear PM.

I have over the years read, and listened to many self-called Christians make statements like; "I know I have the Holy Spirit living in me and guiding me," and they then go on to ridicule and berate others, Christians or not, usually only because they do not agree. As far as keeping myself from stumbling every day, I am a hopeless case. But, I do pray, sometimes several times a day, and especially after I have sinned, I ask God, in Jesus Holy Name to forgive me of all sin.

These following Scriptures should be enough for any follower of Christ to realise that we are only in union with God UNTIL SIN SEPARATES us from Him (Read Isa. 59:2; Rom. 8:12, 13; Ezek. 18:4; Jame 5:19, 20; Gal. 5:19-21; 6:7, 8).

When the soul sins it dies, or it is separated from God, and it forfeits the life of God by this sin, hence it loses the life it could have had eternally if it had remained in union with God and holy eternally. The sinful soul apart from God continues to function but it is "dead" or "separated" from God whos life the soul enjoyed as long as it remained in union with Him. If it never becomes united with God again it remains dead and separated from God and the life which is eternal in God. This is why the soul suffers eternal death or separation from God (Mark 9:45; Isa. 66:22-24; Rev. 14:9-12; 19:20; 20:10-15; 21:8). The continued life in Hell is not called eternal life for the same reason the sinning soul is considered dead while on Earth (Matt. 8:22; Eph. 2:1-9; 1 Tim. 5:6). It is not true normal in harmony with God. It is only existing out of union with God contrary to the created purpose.

Men are considered dead to sin and Satan when they are separated from them and are in union with God (Rom. 6:2, 7-13; 8:10; 1 Pet. 2:24). and they are also considered dead to God when they are separated from God and in union with sin and Satan (Rom. 6:1-23; Eph. 2;1-9; Col. 2:13; Isa. 59:2). Faith is even sapoken of as being dead when separated from workd (Read James 2:17-26).

If the soul loses its own life when it sins, then it would cease to exist, for to be separated from its own life means cessation of existence, and this the Bible never teaches by death, as seen in the above passages. In this case, there would be no need of a resurrection, judgment, or an eternal Hell.

The soul is not the physical blood, for the blood cannot sin of itself like the soul. The soul lives when the blood is gone and the body has decayed. If the blood were the soul then every time any blood is lost, part of the soul would be lost. When one loses his soul he loses himself, not merely the blood (Luke 9:25 with Mark 8:36).

Sin proceeds from the inner man not from part of the body (1 Cor. 6:18; Mark 7:19-21).

When God said to Adam, "Ye shall surely die" He meant it and whe He says to SAVED MEN today that the soul that sinneth it shall die, He means it. This applies to ALL MEN who sin and SAVED MEN today are NO EXCEPTION. Both Adam and Eve believed the first teacher of unconditional security, the Devil, and they lost their eternal life. So it is today with all who sin and believe the lie of the devil that sinning-saints cannot be lost.

Eternal life does not make us members of the Deity, for we would then be equal with God. If we were members of the Godhead we could not sin, because God cannot sin; we could not make mistakes, because God cannot mane mistakes. We would be absolutly and eternally holy and would have all the qualities of Deity. We know this is not true of human beings who are in Christ, so they cannot be members of the Deity. If they are not members of the Godhead when they recieve eternal life, then eternal life is not their own life, and therefore, it remains God's life as long as they are in union with God. They are in union with God UNTIL SIN SEPARATES them from Him (Read Isa. 59:2; Rom. 8:12, 13; Ezek. 18:4; Jame 5:19, 20; Gal. 5:19-21; 6:7, 8).

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who has all the qualities of deity and who is a part of the Godhead. He has self-existent life by virtue of being a member of the Deity (1 John 5:7, 8; John 3:16). Men are merely adopted sons and live as long as the penalty death is not passed upon them because of sin after they get into Christ.

If this is true, then the teaching about security that men in Christ cannot die again regardless of how much they sin is wholly false. Similarly, the idea is false that one can lose fellowship but not relationship. What good is relationship if one goes to eternal Hell and sufferes the penalty for sin that he would have suffered had he never been saved? Eternal life is given us upon the condition that we remain in Christ by living free from sin and rebellion against God.

Lucifer, many angels, demons, and men who were at one time in God's grace and favour are going to spend eternity in Hell regardless of sonship, fellowship, and relationship with God. When fellowship is lost, relationship means nothing. All angels are called "sons of God" (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7). Fallen angels are still "sons of God" but many of them are in Hell today (Read 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6, 7) and all of them will finally go to Hell regardless of sonship (Matt. 25:41). Not one passage in Scripture even hints that a man may lose fellowship because of sin and still retain relationship with God and have eternal life in Heaven.

[larryt]

I believe that He is able to keep that which I have committed into Him against that day.

He that began a good work in me WILL COMPLETE IT.

That all that are given to Jesus Christ by the Father cannot be lost.

I have eternal life right now, not temporary conditional life.

He is able to keep me from falling and to present me faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.

I am a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

many more.

LT

[larryt]

I believe that He is able to keep that which I have committed into Him against that day.

He that began a good work in me WILL COMPLETE IT.

That all that are given to Jesus Christ by the Father cannot be lost.

I have eternal life right now, not temporary conditional life.

He is able to keep me from falling and to present me faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.

I am a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

many more.

LT

Emotional response. Show it with scripture.

Hi WSB,

I thought you of all people would recognize these. But since you ask,

2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father

[Guest nicholus]

I think a lot of people look at this question in the wrong way. To answer the question I believe it and I don't believe it. I believe that there is no one who can take it from you, but at the same time I believe you can walk away from it.

[larryt]

I think a lot of people look at this question in the wrong way. To answer the question I believe it and I don't believe it. I believe that there is no one who can take it from you, but at the same time I believe you can walk away from it.

If He is keeping it you cannot loose it. If you are keeping it you WILL loose it.

If He does not complete the work that He began He is a liar which cannot be.

If He looses us for any reason then He is a liar which cannot be.

If eternal life ever stops it is not eternal it is temporary.

We cannot even fall for He is the ONe that keeps us from falling.

Can the butterfly EVER revert and become a catapillar again?

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

LT

[larryt]

I think a lot of people look at this question in the wrong way. To answer the question I believe it and I don't believe it. I believe that there is no one who can take it from you, but at the same time I believe you can walk away from it.

If He is keeping it you cannot loose it. If you are keeping it you WILL loose it.

If He does not complete the work that He began He is a liar which cannot be.

If He looses us for any reason then He is a liar which cannot be.

You are simply reading your own doctrine into the passages that clearly do not say this.

If eternal life ever stops it is not eternal it is temporary.

Eternal life is given on the condition of belief, which obviously must be maintained.

We cannot even fall for He is the ONe that keeps us from falling.

Then why would Jesus warn us about deception, and say that he who endures shall be saved?

Matthew 24:11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Can the butterfly EVER revert and become a catapillar again?

No, but believers can "defile their garments" and eventually lose faith.

Rev 3:4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Notice, Jesus mentioned the blotting out of names from the book of life. A name must be written before it can be blotted out.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

LT

If there is no chance of a believer ever falling away, then why is it that so much of Jesus and the Apostle's teaching was warnings about false doctrine?

What about this?

1 Corinthians 9:24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

Only those who finish a race get a prize. People who start the race normally do not get any consolation prize.

25And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

What, pray tell, is a castaway? A castaway is someone who is lost at sea from a shipwreck.

Here "castaway" comes from the same word translated "reprobate" 6 times in the Bible, and "rejected" one time. Paul has just said in plain text that it is POSSIBLE if he did not strive to "run the race" that he could be a reprobate. I don't see how much plainer it could be to anyone who is honest about the issue.

OSAS is a bunch of garbage.

Hi WSB,

You and I are not so far apart as you might think. You accuse me of misinterpreting the scriptures above and fail to point out how. Me thinks you are getting hot under the collar about this topic. And as I have said in previous OSAS topics I am not so dogmatic to tell someone they are saved and present a false security.

There are many that never take the time to EXAMINE THEMSELVES and see if Christ is in them and that they are in the faith proving that they are reprobate.

Without Jesus Christ I CAN DO NOTHING. I cannot hold onto my salvation neither can I maintain it. It is ALL OF HIM and none of me. Because someone endures to the end is the proof that that person is a true child of God. The proof that one is not a child of God is that they will not endure to the end. Salvation is not just mouthing the words or going forward. Unless the Father draws you to the Son YOU ARE NOT SAVED. I believe in the doctrine of election. I do not believe in "free will."

LT

[HAZARD]

I think a lot of people look at this question in the wrong way. To answer the question I believe it and I don't believe it. I believe that there is no one who can take it from you, but at the same time I believe you can walk away from it.

If He is keeping it you cannot loose it. If you are keeping it you WILL loose it.

If He does not complete the work that He began He is a liar which cannot be.

If He looses us for any reason then He is a liar which cannot be.

If eternal life ever stops it is not eternal it is temporary.

We cannot even fall for He is the ONe that keeps us from falling.

Can the butterfly EVER revert and become a catapillar again?

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

LT

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Dear 'larry't

Read these Scriptures again.

Eternal life does not make us members of the Deity, for we would then be equal with God. If we were members of the Godhead we could not sin, because God cannot sin; we could not make mistakes, because God cannot mane mistakes. We would be absolutly and eternally holy and would have all the qualities of Deity. We know this is not true of human beings who are in Christ, so they cannot be members of the Deity. If they are not members of the Godhead when they recieve eternal life, then eternal life is not their own life, and therefore, it remains God's life as long as they are in union with God. They are in union with God UNTIL SIN SEPARATES them from Him (Read Isa. 59:2; Rom. 8:12, 13; Ezek. 18:4; Jame 5:19, 20; Gal. 5:19-21; 6:7, 8).

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who has all the qualities of deity and who is a part of the Godhead. He has self-existent life by virtue of being a member of the Deity (1 John 5:7, 8; John 3:16). Men are merely adopted sons and live as long as the penalty death is not passed upon them because of sin after they get into Christ.

If this is true, then the teaching about security that men in Christ cannot die again regardless of how much they sin is wholly false. Similarly, the idea is false that one can lose fellowship but not relationship. What good is relationship if one goes to eternal Hell and sufferes the penalty for sin that he would have suffered had he never been saved? Eternal life is given us upon the condition that we remain in Christ by living free from sin and rebellion against God.

Lucifer, many angels, demons, and men who were at one time in God's grace and favour are going to spend eternity in Hell regardless of sonship, fellowship, and relationship with God. When fellowship is lost, relationship means nothing. All angels are called "sons of God" (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7). Fallen angels are still "sons of God" but many of them are in Hell today (Read 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6, 7) and all of them will finally go to Hell regardless of sonship (Matt. 25:41). Not one passage in Scripture even hints that a man may lose fellowship because of sin and still retain relationship with God and have eternal life in Heaven.

Unconditional securityites say, "A believer can never be lost. If anyone is lost he was never saved . . . Eternal life would not be eternal if it could be lost. Would salvation be salvation if it could be lost? If a single saved man is ever lost, God has failed . . . Christ is insufficient to keep men saved and God is unfaithful to them. . . . Once in Grace always in Grace and once a son always a son is perfectly scriptural." These statements are the most unwise and unscriptural ever taught. They are the basis of a theory that violates the laws of God, nature, and logic. As a mental proposition such a theory assumes an unsound position and is a disgrace to the art of human reasoning. Just because a man is once saved from sin and Hell is no sign that he cannot go back into sin and be lost again and finally go to Hell. No Scripture has yet been found that says a man cannot loose eternal life and no one will ever be able to produce a Scripture that says such a thing, so it will take more than mere human statements to prove this claim.

A man saved from a certain kind of death may again become the victim of the kind of death he was once saved from. A man pulled out of the ocean and saved from death can again fall into the same ocean and be rescued again and again and can then finally go back and be drowned. A man lost in the forrest and who has been found can go back into the forrest and be lost and found any number of times. One might as well argue that because a man was lost in the forrest and died without being found, that he was never out of the forrest in the first place, as to argue that a man who is finally lost in Hell was never once saved. One might as well argue that a man was never a man if he was ever lost, as to argue that salvation is not salvation if it could be lost. One might as well argue that an eternal diamond was not eternal should it be lost as to argue that eternal life is not eternal should it ever be lost. Such reasoning is not logical from any standpoint.

One may as well argue that once a child of the devil, always a child of the devil; once a sinner, always a sinner; once alive, always alive; once saved from drowning, always saved from drowing; once full of food, always full of food; or some other illogical principle, as to argue once saved, always saved or once a child of God always a child of God or once in grace always in grace. Such argument is out of harmony with all creation and every principle of life. In every phase of life there are certain conditions to meet to maintain that phase of life. Neglect eating food and the body will die; neglect a garden, a home, or anything in the natural realm and it will fall into decay and ruin.

So it is with the soul, let it be quickened from above and go back into sin, which causes death, and it will die again. It is not a question of taking man out of the human family, or of the soul ceasing to be a soul shoul it go back into sin and be lost, butit is a question of the continued life of the soul by continuous quickening from above to keep it from dying again. The law is, "IF YE LIVE AFTER THE FLESH, YE SHALL DIE: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body YE SHALL LIVE" (Rom. 8:13) and "THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE" (Ezek. 18:4, 19-24; 33:12-20).

"WHOSOEVER HATH SINNED AGAINST ME, HIM WILL I BLOT OUT OF MY BOOK" (Exodus 32:30-35). God said this and He means it. Again we read, "LET THEM BE BLOTTED OUT ON THE BOOK OF THE LIVING, and not written with the righteous" (Psalms 69:28). This is a prophecy of Judas, as proved by a comparison of Acts 1:20 and Psalms 69:25-29). One cannot be blotted out of the book of the living IF ONE WAS NOT ALREADY IN IT TO BEGINE WITH?

In Revelation we read, "HE THAT OVERCOMETH, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; AND I WILL NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE" (Rev. 3:5) This passage teaches that if men DO NOT OVERCOME, their names will be blotted out!

He that ENDURETH TO THE END shall be saved (Matt. 10:22) It must be possible NOT TO ENDURE TO THE END, or this Scripture is meaningless!

"Because iniquity shall about, the love of many SHALL WAX COLD" (Matt. 24:12). When love waxes cold one has lost Christ and eternal life and will be spued out (Rev. 2:4-5; 3:15-16). One who has lost love has lost God, and if one has lost God he has lost grace as stated in (1 John 4:8; 12, 16, 21; Gal. 1:6-8; 5:4; Heb. 12:15).

"They hear, recieve the Word with joy . . . WHICH FOR A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY" (Luke 8:13). They that believed for a while where saved, then when tempted, they fell away. It cannot be any clearer than that!

[HAZARD]

QUOTE

I believe in the doctrine of election. I do not believe in "free will."

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Anyone who goes through out life without free will is a slave. They must do what they are ordered to do. They have no choice!

God does not force anyone to do what He says. He said "therefore CHOOSE LIFE" He did not say I order you to choose life, I order you not to sin, I order you to remain saved.

Free moral agency consists of intellect, sensibility, and free will, and these form the foundation of moral obligation to moral government. The intellect includes reason and self determination. The sensibility includes self consciousness, all sensations, desires, emotions, passions, and feelings. Free will is the power of choice concerning moral law. It is mans faculty of choosing good or evil without compulsion or necessity. It was originally created in man, and man will have it throughout eternity.

[larryt]

QUOTE

I believe in the doctrine of election. I do not believe in "free will."

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Anyone who goes through out life without free will is a slave. They must do what they are ordered to do. They have no choice!

God does not force anyone to do what He says. He said "therefore CHOOSE LIFE" He did not say I order you to choose life, I order you not to sin, I order you to remain saved.

Free moral agency consists of intellect, sensibility, and free will, and these form the foundation of moral obligation to moral government. The intellect includes reason and self determination. The sensibility includes self consciousness, all sensations, desires, emotions, passions, and feelings. Free will is the power of choice concerning moral law. It is mans faculty of choosing good or evil without compulsion or necessity. It was originally created in man, and man will have it throughout eternity.

Hi HAZARD,

There is a difference between free will and volition.

If you can add anything to the work of the Lord Jesus Christ His work is not complete. For me HE DID IT ALL. Do you think that you could chose Him by your own will? You were dead. Can a dead man do anything? I think not.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

He did it all, is doing it all, and will continue to do everything to effect His will.

LT